My Best Guess....

[Lij]

The Red Herrings Concerning Peter


And what is left when they are resolved.

I have come to believe that there are two or three red herrings or irrelevant topics concerning Peter in “The Last Sam Weiss” and continuing into “The Day We Died.” The first two deal with his mental acuity.

The first is, of course, Peter’s memory loss after the Vacuum rejected him. He wakes up in the hospital and believes that he is in the Red!verse. Peter sets off for New York. And upon arriving there he stops first to buy a fifty cent piece like he owned as a child before then setting off to Liberty Island to see his father, Secretary of State Walter Bishop. Was that the third time he denied our Walter?

Oh, please! These scenes were simply designed to add some dramatic tension while also getting Peter down to New York and Liberty Island so that he could meet up with his destiny in the Vacuum. It was nothing more, unless you count getting the Observer in the episode or a possible foreshadowing of his location in season 4. Peter was almost childlike upon getting into the taxi. His belief of where he was is in the Red!verse is understandable as is his further confusion up to Liberty Island. Peter had no rock to stabilize him (despite his own name) and easily came around when people he knew interacted with him.

The second irrelevancy occurs at the end of “The Last Sam Weiss” and continues into “The Day We Died.” Peter goes into the machine and all of a sudden wakes up lying on his left side viewing what seems to be a battle scene. He’s disoriented and sees the commemoration sign for Liberty Tower in 2021. He asks, ‘where am I,’ as a Fringe Division ‘trooper’ tries to get him down before another vehicle (or vortex weapon) explodes which spews shrapnel which now injures Peter in the side (more on that later). At the hospital evidently still confused he utters something about getting into or being in the machine according to the new Fringe Agent Ella Dunham.

So we are led to believe that Peter has somehow gone into the future because he is experiencing another lapse in memory associated with the machine. But once again around people he knows, Peter comes around; his memory is unimpaired and he knows the protocols of Fringe Division and Olivia’s breakfast. What we are led to believe did not happen at all. The Peter whom we have been following for three seasons went nowhere while in the machine – either corporally or via his consciousness.

In the year 2026 a Peter wakes up jittery and confused because he was in an attack staged by the End of Dayers. A vortex weapon had gone off and caused Ella Dunham to be sent flying from the vehicle she was in. Was this Peter also in this vehicle? I think quite possibly he was and likely he may have had a worse experience than Ella. But then again Peter had also been rejected by the machine 15 years earlier and had injured his head. So it is not improbable that a pre-existing condition was exacerbated by the shock of the vortex weapon.

Now wait a second, you’re going to say. Peter got injured when rejected by the machine and you are using that to claim a possible underlying condition, but this isn’t the Peter we’ve been watching for three seasons of Fringe? YES! The Peter in 2026 is a previous Peter from the previous loop in time. No one can make a major decision which changes the march of history; but it is the small things which may wreak havoc on a time line – thus a firefly. Everything that can happen has and will happen – for the most part. Each loop in time is basically similar and has perhaps happened millions of times over. So call this Peter in 2026 - or Peter(n-1).

So what happened after Walter(n-1) last talked to Peter(n-1) after Olivia(n-1)’s death in 2026? We are rather deviously led to believe that Walter(n-1) found a way to send Peter(n-1)’s consciousness back in time to 2011 by getting in the machine again. But what’s done is done; you cannot go back in time, except via the wormhole which creates the time-loop. And Walter(n-1) had to find a way to bring Peter(n-1)’s consciousness forward.

Well, we are not told what happened, because they wanted to keep us guessing. But my guess is this. Walter(n-1) and perhaps a Fringe Science Team found a way to incorporate Peter(n-1)’s memory engrams into the circuitry of the machine before he sent it back; so that the machine would then imprint Peter(n-1)’s consciousness on the next Peter (or Peter(n)). Just look at the lead-in sciences in the opening title to “The Day We Died” and three in particular: THOUGHT EXTRACTION, BRAIN PORTING, and NEURAL PARTITIONING. These three alone would seem to speak to Walter(n-1)’s needs to get the job done. And I am thinking it may have meant Peter(n-1)’s untimely death; but with the thought of an Olivia alive he would have accepted it (so it may surely be as Sam Weiss said, choosing Olivia would save the universe). TEMPORAL PLASTICITY from the title perhaps would deal with the “First Person Team” and their trip through the wormhole back to near the Permo-Triassic boundary.

So in 2011 when our Peter (who would be Peter(n)) goes into the Vacuum he is doing so in a defensive posture just as all such Peters(n, n-1, n-2, n-3,…) have always done before in any time-loop. As a defense presupposes an offense, Peter(n) is necessarily set on a path towards destruction of the Red!verse. Brandonate confirms this to Walternate, when he tells him that in the last 60 seconds the soft spots in their universe are getting worse instead of better. During this time Peter(n) is also phasing into the machine in the Red!verse; thus he has total control over both. But his heart rate is racing and Walter(n) becomes worried for him. It is as if use of the machine for destruction is deleterious for the user.

But Walter(n-1) or a Fringe Team has prepared the machine differently this time; and in those 60+ seconds slowly Peter(n) has been overtaken by the consciousness of Peter(n-1). The machine settles down now as Olivia(n) has climbed the stairs to Peter(n)’s body positioned in the machine. Peter(n-1) lifts the head of Peter(n) and says, “Olivia you’re alive!” Now Peter(n-1) does what his consciousness was sent forward in the time-loop to do. Create a space where both universes can work together to solve what is now their common problem. Note that the choice of creation does not take as much out of Peter(n-1) as the toll of the choice of destruction was taking on Peter(n). Choosing life is perhaps always the less painful route.

Tying Up Some Loose Ends

Peter seems to live up to his Biblical name by denying his father, Walter. Once, by crossing over with Walternate to the Red!verse and again after his head injury after the machine rejected him. A third time, I am not sure? Except that it might be when he left him after coming of age. But he always makes up for it in 2026 when he says concerning the destruction of both universes, “no matter who’s at fault, you’re my dad.” Peter(n-1) also represents a messianic figure. Pierced in the side by shrapnel from an End of Dayer’s vortex weapon, he goes on to be resurrected in the machine in a ‘future past’ where he gives mankind one last chance at redemption.

Yes, Fringe Teams from 2026 (or maybe a bit later) are the First People in all time-loops. Not sure about you, but it came to me 2 or 3 days after “The Last Sam Weiss.” (http://fringe-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10311) It just had to be; it was the only logical explanation. Back when they were starting to dig machine parts up I think I even alluded to that idea. As a geologist I was finding the idea of digging up machine pieces that had been buried 250 million years ago by another race of people that had earlier evolved at that time, ludicrous and illogical. How could they know what the position of tectonic plates would be or what might be eroded, among other questions? But now, the First People/Fringe Team would have two things on their side, one they knew were they dug up the pieces, and two, all such places were probably in stable pre-Mesozoic (pre-Triassic) rock known to exist in 2010. As a geologist there is a large part of me that wishes I could be on such a team.

Well, now we’re getting to where the rubber meets the road. What happened to the conjoined Peter (Peter(n-1)‘s consciousness in Peter(n)‘s body). That is a tough nut to crack. I guess the Observer’s words bear repeating, “You were right they don’t remember Peter.” To which September replied, “How could they, he never existed. He served his purpose.” Certainly, Peter(n-1) did not exist as a person in ‘n’ time, thus he never existed but Peter(n)? I guess being bumped out of the Do-loop (aka time-loop) means … means what? Does it mean that the Peters(n, n-1, n-2, n-3,…) as a necessary cause (his purpose) could only exist inside the loop? There is also in my scenario the question of what happened with Peter(n)’s consciousness. Was his consciousness uploaded to the machine even as Peter(n-1)’s was downloaded? I think these are questions for which we need more information. Like another episode full… or more!
. . .

[ag86]

I want to think it over later, but great theory that ties up the opening titles!

[ApplesBananasRhinoceros]

Wow a lot to digest there, yes very interesting theory!! So has Peter just been a big experiment by Walter in consciousness-porting? How does Robert Bishop factor into this and his date of death??

What if it turns out that Peter really is Walter's son in another iteration of the timeline... Tons of possibilities!!

[Lij]

Wow a lot to digest there, yes very interesting theory!! So has Peter just been a big experiment by Walter in consciousness-porting? How does Robert Bishop factor into this and his date of death??

What if it turns out that Peter really is Walter's son in another iteration of the timeline... Tons of possibilities!!
Consciousness porting? Well, something like that. We are not given any ideas except through the sciences in the title sequence.

Peter - make that Robert Bishop... I've given up on that line. I was only dealing with what we were given to know in the last two episodes.,.. for the most part.

My point is that Peter is always from the Red!verse. I think we have been shown in these first three seasons of FRINGE, what has happened over and over again, likely for many millions of times. It's as if free will did not exist in the time-loop but now thanks to the salvation offered by Peter(n-1), free will has been restored. Any Peter could have been the wild card, that person who made a different choice. The trouble was that since the Red!verse always started its machine first, the Peters did not have that free will to change things.

BTW... I'm disappointed that my 'n' and 'n-1' - to indicate the last time loop and the next to the last time loop - did not show up as the subscript that I had written. The were that way in the message box, but upon posting the article, they disappeared. So I put them in parenthesis.
...

[Lij]

The We in "The Day We Died" has always represented to me just what Walter(n-1) said in the episode, the entire world died on the day Peter went into the machine. But since the world did not end and Peter became a non-entity, I came to think it meant that the We was the romantic pairing of Peter and Olivia.

But in thinking of free will, I said above:

It's as if free will did not exist in the time-loop but now thanks to the salvation offered by Peter(n-1), free will has been restored.

And I also said that Peter(n-1) represents the Christ-like messianic figure. But it is could better be thought of as a plural persona, made up of Peter(n-1) and Peter(n). Thus the mind/consciousness of Peter(n-1) is represents the Holy Spirit while Peter(n) represents Jesus the man.

Then it is this plural man/spirit, this messianic figure, which provides salvation and restores free will to the universes by disengaging them from the time-loop. This dual man/spirit (representative of both universes) also provides redemption for his own fathers - or at least the chance for that redemption. And yet in doing so this plural man/spirit is only a created entity wiithin the time-loop and comes to fade away outside of it, to be the day 'the created We' died.

. . .

[jophan]

I like the theory. It's in line with what I think. Now, unless September made his own error repeatedly or Walter's motivation was to replace his son rather than to save the alternate, Peter would probably have been in the Redverse his entire life in all loops up to n-2. Then he and Walternate (not Walter) would have used the wormhole to start the new loop.

Perhaps the divergences between the Redverse and Blueverse may be accumulated random errors occurring in loops 1 to n-1; flaws in the deterministic repetition.

I also wonder if Olivia can travel to any of the loops, not just between universes in the same loop. This could explain the seeming-retcon in The Road Not Taken, with the FBI offices and the Cortexiphan subjects. That would be Blueverse(not n) rather than a Redverse.

[Lij]

Perhaps the divergences between the Redverse and Blueverse may be accumulated random errors occurring in loops 1 to n-1; flaws in the deterministic repetition.

I also wonder if Olivia can travel to any of the loops, not just between universes in the same loop. This could explain the seeming-retcon in The Road Not Taken, with the FBI offices and the Cortexiphan subjects. That would be Blueverse(not n) rather than a Redverse.

First, thanks. :tiphat:

I never considered that "accumulated random errors" might be the cause of the divergence of both universes. It's a very interesting idea, and absent any real ideas from the producers/writers it is certainly one to be considered.

My problem with such an idea is the complexity it entails. I tend to adhere to the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid. It has always worked well in any geological work I have done. But then we're talking cosmology and physics here, and moreover sci-fi cosmology and physics. And the mind, the writers, can sometimes come up with some very convoluted twists (which afterall makes it enjoyable or fun).

So I tend to think in a more simplistic fashion and think that the history of every (n, n-1, n-2, n-3, ....) time has been nearly the same in either universe. It seems to me that they almost have to be. Something alway has to lead to the annihilation of both universes. If I had to choose right now what causes the split in the universes from their parent, I would have to say that it happens in or due to the time-based wormhole that the Fringe Team/First People take back to the end of the Permian. They (are they blue every time?) think they have destroyed the other universe so the First People lore does not mention it; they expect to be going back to a singular universe but the wormhole itself creates the Red and Blue universes and there turns out to be two Fringe Teams/First People, one for each universe.

I'm falling in love with your idea about Olivia. And its got me all tingley now thinking I have the answer to what the origin of the Observers might be. We are the First People is not exactly true (I bring this up because they say the First People and Observers cannot be the same). Those who were the First People in one respect will never exist - history beyond 2011 has changed with Peter(n-1/n)'s decision to create rather than destroy. So there will be no more First People (unless the Walters start feuding again). But that doesn't mean that we as in both universes cannot be the Observers.

Olivia's powers would be the key to creating a new race of beings perhaps based upon shape-shifters (Peter's shape-shifter work coming back?) imbued with cortexiphan, with the ability to pass through time and space between the universes to shape the past to protect the future.

Damn, if I just figured out FRINGE, I may have ruined it for myself. Likelyhood of that happening.... 1% maybe. LOL!! :haha:
...

[Ophelia's Hamlet]

I'm falling in love with your idea about Olivia. And its got me all tingley now thinking I have the answer to what the origin of the Observers might be. We are the First People is not exactly true (I bring this up because they say the First People and Observers cannot be the same). Those who were the First People in one respect will never exist - history beyond 2011 has changed with Peter(n-1/n)'s decision to create rather than destroy. So there will be no more First People (unless the Walters start feuding again). But that doesn't mean that we as in both universes cannot be the Observers.

Olivia's powers would be the key to creating a new race of beings perhaps based upon shape-shifters (Peter's shape-shifter work coming back?) imbued with cortexiphan, with the ability to pass through time and space between the universes to shape the past to protect the future.
We can't be the First People and the Observers! :confused0066: I refuse to believe it!
Besides, the Observers just observe... and sometimes accidentally lead to the deaths of the Bobby Joyces of the world... but they don't try to interfere.

[Lij]

We can't be the First People and the Observers! :confused0066: I refuse to believe it!
Besides, the Observers just observe... and sometimes accidentally lead to the deaths of the Bobby Joyces of the world... but they don't try to interfere.
Technically, we were not the First People. Our history goes beyond 2026, but the First People never saw much beyond that year.

But thinking back to the ep Peter, I can see that the idea becomes a bit iffy. If Peter was meant by the Observers to always be born in the Red!verse then that may have been the surviving universe beyond 2011. They may be the ones who sent the Fringe Teams back to be the First People. Walter and Walternate are truly interchangable.

My point is that preserving history might be the only operative program a set of created beings like the Observers may have. Failing that making sure at least one Peter survives perhaps would become their prime directive with observation; because Peter is the key to either destroying both universes which perpetuates the time-loop which is good or ending the time loops via a creative act and setting time linear again. No one who would have created the Observers from past 2011, apre Pierre, knows what saved the universes (Walter's big idea in 2026). The Observers may not have Observed the act because until the time-loop ends the loop stretches infinitely in either direction; thus no specific iteration of the loop is recognizable as the last one. That is the defining characteristic of this paradox. So the Observers are almost as non-plussed as us.

Still makes me think the Observers are a race of beings from outside our space-time, however. That idea always is the one that rests better with me. The other day I had the idea that they may be some sort of Doctor Who-like Time Lord (only a lot less emotional) who find a couple of inextricably intertwined universes which happen to be in a time-loop. And they become interested (almost like sight-seers) just because it is there.
...

[Ophelia's Hamlet]

My point is that preserving history might be the only operative program a set of created beings like the Observers may have. Failing that making sure at least one Peter survives perhaps would become their prime directive with observation; because Peter is the key to either destroying both universes which perpetuates the time-loop which is good or ending the time loops via a creative act and setting time linear again. No one who would have created the Observers from past 2011, apre Pierre, knows what saved the universes (Walter's big idea in 2026). The Observers may not have Observed the act because until the time-loop ends the loop stretches infinitely in either direction; thus no specific iteration of the loop is recognizable as the last one. That is the defining characteristic of this paradox. So the Observers are almost as non-plussed as us.

Still makes me think the Observers are a race of beings from outside our space-time, however. That idea always is the one that rests better with me. The other day I had the idea that they may be some sort of Doctor Who-like Time Lord (only a lot less emotional) who find a couple of inextricably intertwined universes which happen to be in a time-loop. And they become interested (almost like sight-seers) just because it is there.
I agree that the :observer:s are trying to make sure that history goes a certain way and are outside the timeline. They seem to know every possibility, like Milo from "The Plateau," but not just in regions that they can see. I'm not sure about the idea that someone created them, though. If I had to guess, I would say that they are a naturally-occurring people from far into the past, future, or a higher-level dimension. We really know little about the Observers, though.

[Moviemath]

Ahh, lateral thinking. Refreshing.

I liked the idea of 'bringing the consciousness forward' as something that originated in the future and was sent back in time only to come forward again :cool2:



... What happened to the conjoined Peter (Peter(n-1)‘s consciousness in Peter(n)‘s body). That is a tough nut to crack. I guess the Observer’s words bear repeating, “You were right they don’t remember Peter.” To which September replied, “How could they, he never existed. He served his purpose.” Certainly, Peter(n-1) did not exist as a person in ‘n’ time, thus he never existed but Peter(n)? I guess being bumped out of the Do-loop (aka time-loop) means … means what? Does it mean that the Peters(n, n-1, n-2, n-3,…) as a necessary cause (his purpose) could only exist inside the loop? There is also in my scenario the question of what happened with Peter(n)’s consciousness. Was his consciousness uploaded to the machine even as Peter(n-1)’s was downloaded? I think these are questions for which we need more information. Like another episode full… or more!
. . .

And there it is.

[Aside: Could it be possible that Peter(n-1)'s consciousness is cohabiting Peter(n)'s brain/mind similar to the Olivia/Bellie scenario?]


It's actually taken me a long time to figure this out, even longer to admit and come to terms with

- that in order for Fringe to thoroughly satisfy:


One must be completely prepared and willing to buy into the Implausibility of it all.



Science fantasy is a sub section of science fiction but not all science fiction would necessarily be categorized as science fantasy. And there the distinction must be made -
Fringe is science fantasy.


We could, for example, continue ad infinitum with the iterations of 2026 Peter(n) never existing because Peter(n) has been 'erased' further suggesting that this is the last of an almost infinite number of loops leading to Peter's now unnecessary presence and therefore no First People.:confused0066::confused0006:The loops end here. Or do they?


This video explains the concept really well [though it has been posted elsewhere, it still packs a punch!:D]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4GZJpL8W0

And that's where the show's writers trip themselves up. I guess they don't have the luxury of 'time':P to figure out various 'plausible' details like we do here at the forum, yet they place themselves under a microscope by incorporating concepts, specifically time travel, into an episodic tv serial.


Ideas such as these do well in a two hour movie, the audience has little time to debate the intricacies of scientific detail, plausibility or implausibility as the case may be, and by the time we do figure out the absurdity of it all we don't care anyway - 'cause we've had a fun ride! It began, it unfolded, it ended all in the space of a hundred and twenty minutes or so. 'The Time Machine' [1960],'The Final Countdown' [1980]; 'Back To The Future' [1985]; 'Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure' [1989] etc etc. They were cool movies! Back To The Future #1 is one of my all-time favorites, but stretch it out and it starts to look a little thin.

So, yeah, we have no need to send the BBM back anymore cause 2011 Peter(n) is the last Peter. And he no longer exists anyway... so no future 2026 Peter(n).


September: 'He served his purpose...' :confused0066: Been nice knowin' ya Pete!

But, of course, the writers have allowed themselves a diversity of options carte blanche which further foreshadows fantasy script treatment and, more to the point, implausibility. Spoilers have already alluded to Joshua Jackson having a contract in Season 4. Whether he returns as flashbacks, apparition, a mind invader in someone else's body, a pseudo-observer, a newborn baby - well we just have to wait and see what Pinkner and Wyman dish up.

So, if one is completely prepared and willing to buy into the Implausibility of Fringe, then the future plotlines and mythology hold much hope. And now that I hold this thought myself I'm pretty much open to anything!:D

.
MM:tiphat:


.

[littlemcbeast]

Spoilers have already alluded to Jackson having a contract in Season 4. Whether he returns as flashbacks, apparition, a mind invader in someone else's body, a pseudo-observer, a newborn baby - well we just have to wait and see what Pinkner and Wyman dish up.

Oh, I'd love to see Joshua Jackson playing a newborn baby. :haha:

The categorization of the show as science fantasy is a great nuance; Fringe is sometimes a very delicate balance between rationalization and too much rationalization.

Also I do think the writers have taken more time planning out this plot development than people think. According to this article (http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/the-fien-print/posts/hitfix-interview-jeff-pinkner-and-j-h-wyman-discuss-the-fringe-finale-and-future), not only are they always a season ahead, but they've established the rules of their time-travel world somewhat thoroughly (and more importantly - plan on sticking to it!).


JP: We've said it before that we always plot the seasons out a year in advance. We're not going around willy-nilly. It's something that we always lay out and we definitely know where we're going and feel like this is a perfect set-up for Season Four. A lot of the things and a lot of decisions that I think may confuse some people now -- other people it didn't, but some people it did confuse and some for some people they were good questions and for some people they were bad questions -- we feel confident that the answers will be revealed in the following season.



JP: One of the notable things about time-travel paradoxes is that there are several ways to attack the time-travel paradox and as long as you remain honest and consistent with the rules that you choose to follow, the rules that you choose to establish, you're good. So we'll be very clear with the rules that we are establishing and hopefully we will remain true to those.

[Moviemath]

Hi LMcB


Oh, I'd love to see Joshua Jackson playing a newborn baby. :haha:

Heh.


The categorization of the show as science fantasy is a great nuance; Fringe is sometimes a very delicate balance between rationalization and too much rationalization.

Double heh!


Also I do think the writers have taken more time planning out this plot development than people think. According to this article (http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/the-fien-print/posts/hitfix-interview-jeff-pinkner-and-j-h-wyman-discuss-the-fringe-finale-and-future), not only are they always a season ahead, but they've established the rules of their time-travel world somewhat thoroughly (and more importantly - plan on sticking to it!).:confused0006:

Yeah, I read that article yesterday. In the past I, personally, used to hang on every word and promise these guys would put out through various interviews and articles. Not so much anymore. A lot of what they've said and done in earlier seasons has led to nothing, and they cover themselves by asking us for an inordinate amount of patience given the myriad of pastimes and activities most people are involved in these days.... me among them.

Did you watch the video in my post? It's fun, and pretty much explains how time travel can be a real mind bender, and if you're not prepared to 'buy in'... a total waste of time.:ashamed0001:;)

I, for one, am at last at peace...!:haha::P:tiphat:


.

[littlemcbeast]

In the past I, personally, used to hang on every word and promise these guys would put out through various interviews and articles. Not so much anymore. A lot of what they've said and done in earlier seasons has led to nothing, and they cover themselves by asking us for an inordinate amount of patience given the myriad of pastimes and activities most people are involved in these days.... me among them.

I've only recently started following interviews, so I guess I'm still in the pollyanna phase of it all. :D I'm always very forgiving when I love something though; I can usually find some way of reconciling any faults in logic to make myself happy - so I think I'll be okay with Fringe. :haha:

I saw about half the video before my ADHD took me elsewhere, but I do plan on watching the rest of it at some point. (And finish some of the longer theoretical posts on here...) With coffee, I will make it through!

[Moviemath]

^ Happy travels :happy15:!

.

[AlainaO]

The We in "The Day We Died" has always represented to me just what Walter(n-1) said in the episode, the entire world died on the day Peter went into the machine. But since the world did not end and Peter became a non-entity, I came to think it meant that the We was the romantic pairing of Peter and Olivia.

I don't agree with this and really hope it is not the case. I would feel very cheated if I had invested three years into their great dynamic/relationship for it to suddenly all be erased. I think this is a big problem for a lot of the fans, which is why this is such a polarizing episode. In an interview with EW the showrunners say:
Is this the end of the Peter/Olivia romance? Or is that still in play?
PINKNER: Well, at the moment, Peter’s not even in play, so that curtails a relationship. And at the moment there are two Olivias, so it would be interesting to have a love triangle with just two Olivias. It seems a large portion of our fanbase was initially resistant to the idea of a relationship but got on board. We’re still very much interested in exploring it. Hopefully this is a long and unfolding story. We don’t want to shut down any avenues, be it Bell or Lincoln and Charlie or Peter/Olivia.
WYMAN: We think people are invested in the relationship, and we are, too.
PINKNER: We have said from the beginning that Fringe is a family drama masquerading as a science fiction/investigation show. But it’s called Fringe because it’s about three characters that live on the fringe of life and society and have a hard time dealing with their own emotions, but who find each other and find connection with each other. We will remain true to that.

This gives me hope.:hope:

[Lij]

I was not speaking of an ultimate end to Peter and Olivia's romantic relationship, but certainly it is an end to what they came to have in this last season. I fully expect that there will be a way for them to rekindle it.

[Chi]

I'm only just seeing this thread, but it's got some of the best theories I've seen so far and that's saying a lot :D The whole thing with brain porting and essentially "leaving a print" of Peter(n-1) on the machine seems quite plausible and explains how they "brought his consciousness forward" by taking it back first! It also explains why Peter was confused after his first attempt at entering the BBM - if other imprints of future Peter from different time loops (n-2, n-3 etc) where also left on the machine, there must have been a version of Peter that grew up in the RedVerse so he'd been temporarily imprinted by that.

Very clever reasoning well done! :)


The whole disappearing out of existence thing is still difficult to wrap my head around - the issues with time travel paradoxes just makes it seems really impossible....

[Chi]

[removing double post]

[Lij]

I'm only just seeing this thread, but it's got some of the best theories I've seen so far and that's saying a lot :D The whole thing with brain porting and essentially "leaving a print" of Peter(n-1) on the machine seems quite plausible and explains how they "brought his consciousness forward" by taking it back first! It also explains why Peter was confused after his first attempt at entering the BBM - if other imprints of future Peter from different time loops (n-2, n-3 etc) where also left on the machine, there must have been a version of Peter that grew up in the RedVerse so he'd been temporarily imprinted by that.

Very clever reasoning well done! :)


The whole disappearing out of existence thing is still difficult to wrap my head around - the issues with time travel paradoxes just makes it seems really impossible....

Thank you, Chi. Frankly, sometimes just thinking about the ramifications that TDWD introduced into FRINGE gives me headaches. Yeah, I have the same problem wrapping my head around Peter's existence as well. And dammit!! :confused0066: I hope the writer's are having an even worse time trying to reconcile it!! :P - at the writers. :haha:

...

[WhatsUpDoc1958]

Each loop in time is basically similar and has perhaps happened millions of times over. So call this Peter in 2026 - or Peter(n-1).

So what happened after Walter(n-1) last talked to Peter(n-1) after Olivia(n-1)’s death in 2026? We are rather deviously led to believe that Walter(n-1) found a way to send Peter(n-1)’s consciousness back in time to 2011 by getting in the machine again. But what’s done is done; you cannot go back in time, except via the wormhole which creates the time-loop. And Walter(n-1) had to find a way to bring Peter(n-1)’s consciousness forward.

Well, we are not told what happened, because they wanted to keep us guessing. But my guess is this. Walter(n-1) and perhaps a Fringe Science Team found a way to incorporate Peter(n-1)’s memory engrams into the circuitry of the machine before he sent it back; so that the machine would then imprint Peter(n-1)’s consciousness on the next Peter (or Peter(n)). Just look at the lead-in sciences in the opening title to “The Day We Died” and three in particular: THOUGHT EXTRACTION, BRAIN PORTING, and NEURAL PARTITIONING. These three alone would seem to speak to Walter(n-1)’s needs to get the job done. And I am thinking it may have meant Peter(n-1)’s untimely death; but with the thought of an Olivia alive he would have accepted it (so it may surely be as Sam Weiss said, choosing Olivia would save the universe). TEMPORAL PLASTICITY from the title perhaps would deal with the “First Person Team” and their trip through the wormhole back to near the Permo-Triassic boundary.

I like your thinking on this. It avoids the problem of consciousness time travel, and reduces it to merely implanting Peter's (n-1) memories into Peter(n) on the next iteration. In Fringe, time travel seems to be outside the abilities of Walter.

I think the issue of time loop iterations may have been glossed over in this episode. In general, a person's actions only changes the future, not the past. Only when the future includes time travel to the past can the past be changed. Peter's actions after stepping from the Machine could not have caused his death as a child, unless future time travel was involved. Therefore:

Blue Universe, Timeline n - 1: This timeline may occur before the timeline represented by Fringe Seasons 1-3.22, although this timeline may be similar to Fringe Seasons 1-3.22. This timeline ends with Peter using the machine to destroy the Red Universe, and results in the future seen through 2026. According to your theory, which I like, Walter records Peter's memories in 2026, and stores them in the Machine, to be retrieved by a future iteration of Peter. No consciousness time travel to 2026 was involved, although this may be what the writers intended.

Blue Universe, Timeline n: Fringe Seasons 1-3.22 comprised this timeline, except when Peter steps into the machine, Peter receives Peter's (n - 1) 2026 memories (previous timeline) showing the destruction of the Blue Universe and the death of Olivia. Using these memories, Peter decides to build a bridge between the Blue and Red Universes instead of destroying the Red Universe. Despite building the Bridge, destruction of both universes occur. As with the previous timelines, Walter uses the wormhole to send the Machine back in time (circa 2026).

Blue Universe, Timeline n + 1: In this timeline, Peter from both Universes dies in childhood, because September did not save Peter as a child in this timeline. As a result, [adult] Peter "never existed" in this timeline. The bridge may have been built by Walter or Olivia, although no character motivation for doing so is shown.

The switch from Timeline n and Timeline n + 1 occurred when Peter vanished. This "vanishing" is actually a visual representation of a timeline shift from a previous timeline to the next timeline, without showing the full timelines playing out.

If the writers were honest with the audience, there should have been a Yellow Fringe episode introductory motif just before Peter vanishes. It would be highly desirable to omit this for dramatic effect. There was a complete timeline cycle that was not shown to the audience, In My Opinion.