What happened/didn't happen part 2 RE Peter's death

[fringeG33k]

I've recreated a version of the what happened/what didn't happen thread in episode 2 but this one is about episode 3 reveals and I didn't want to have to spoiler tag everything in the last thread. :-)

In this episode, Walter tells Aaron the following:

"Peter was very sick. I tried for a long time to find a cure, but I found it too late, and he died. Then I discovered an alternate universe where another version of my son was dying from the same malady. So I crossed over to the other side with the intention of bringing him back to cure him, but the frozen lake where I created a portal between universes was unsound, and when we crossed back the ice broke. Peter, the other version of him, drowned. I lost him all over again."

So Walter is fine with telling the kid about alternate universes and alternate versions of his son dying, but he's inaccurate about who exactly found the cure? In S1-S3 timeline it was Walternate who had the cure (but missed it) why would Walter lie here and say he found the cure? Is it possible that Walter wants to make himself feel that superior to Walternate that he would lie about the events in this delicate moment, or is this something more?

Unless there is a difference here again, in the timeline even before the deaths of the Peters that Peter's death affected somehow, that Walter really was the one to find and create the cure and not Walternate. Wondering what people think about this. Is Walter a liar or are things really that different?

[Lij]

That might be true about the one-upsmanship. However, I got the feeling that Walter was saying his own experimentation led to a cure too late for his Peter, but before Walternate would find a cure. Evidently, both Peters were fated to die young and Walternate would not find a cure. September would likely not have been there to distract Walternate (I am not sure the Observers have been extant in the history of this timeline). But Walternate's Peter was dying and so Walter crossed to cure him.

Either Walter attempted to cross with the cure and was again bothered by Nina (will she have her prosthetic arm next ep?); or Walter went over with the intent of bringing Peter back to the Bluverse to cure him. Either way Peter drowned in Reiden Lake. I wonder if Peter will make a pilgrimage there to see where his body lies? Could that cause a soft spot?

[fringeG33k]

That might be true about the one-upsmanship. However, I got the feeling that Walter was saying his own experimentation led to a cure too late for his Peter, but before Walternate would find a cure.

I got that feeling too, but it opens up a WHOLE new can of worms! There are events around the creation of the cure that would be different as well as the death of Peter, what would get reset beforehand that would lead to Walter finding the cure and not Walternate? Does this now mean that the death of Peter has for sure affected events BEFORE his death absolutely positively? And yes I know we are dealing with a paradox, but this now this means the events beforehand are affected in ways that we can't predict as well.

For example I've always found it curious that Olivia doesn't refer to John Scott as the partner who died, but just says it was her partner. Couple this with the fact that Walternate didn't have any reason to experiment on Olivia in this universe and just sent her back like so much universe-balancing meat, then does that mean he never saw her as a threat? Ever? Charlie died in the OT (Old S1-S3 Timeline) because he was protecting Olivia from Walternate's shapeshifter attack after he suspected Olivia crossed universes to meet with Bell. If Walternate didn't know she could cross universes would he have tried to kill Olivia and by extension, killed Charlie? Was John Scott ever her partner and in this timeline was she sent to the storage units in the pilot with Charlie instead of John and Charlie was the one infected?

I think Charlie was the partner who died in this orangeverse timeline's pilot events because of this. And somehow, John Scott never had reason to work covertly against Olivia because somehow, the existence of Peter in their universe prompted this. If John Scott never had reason to work covertly, can we assume there were threats there because of Peter being alive that were not there when he died - threats like the ever mysterious ZFT that people so desperately want answers on.... oooo I hope so! :-)



Evidently, both Peters were fated to die young and Walternate would not find a cure. September would likely not have been there to distract Walternate (I am not sure the Observers have been extant in the history of this timeline). But Walternate's Peter was dying and so Walter crossed to cure him.

Either Walter attempted to cross with the cure and was again bothered by Nina (will she have her prosthetic arm next ep?);

I hope so, hope the special effect of showing us the arm doesn't kill the budget. Or maybe her arm won't be as developed because of some unknown factor they throw in there to save on $$$. Arm 1.0. :haha:



or Walter went over with the intent of bringing Peter back to the Bluverse to cure him. Either way Peter drowned in Reiden Lake. I wonder if Peter will make a pilgrimage there to see where his body lies? Could that cause a soft spot?

I'm curious to see what Peter can do when he comes back. Before he winked out of existence he said he created um, vortexes or holes or something that led back to the bridge room. Maybe he'll come back and be a human vortex detector or something. :P

[Lij]

I got that feeling too, but it opens up a WHOLE new can of worms! There are events around the creation of the cure that would be different as well as the death of Peter, what would get reset beforehand that would lead to Walter finding the cure and not Walternate? Does this now mean that the death of Peter has for sure affected events BEFORE his death absolutely positively? And yes I know we are dealing with a paradox, but this now this means the events beforehand are affected in ways that we can't predict as well.

For example I've always found it curious that Olivia doesn't refer to John Scott as the partner who died, but just says it was her partner. Couple this with the fact that Walternate didn't have any reason to experiment on Olivia in this universe and just sent her back like so much universe-balancing meat, then does that mean he never saw her as a threat? Ever? Charlie died in the OT (Old S1-S3 Timeline) because he was protecting Olivia from Walternate's shapeshifter attack after he suspected Olivia crossed universes to meet with Bell. If Walternate didn't know she could cross universes would he have tried to kill Olivia and by extension, killed Charlie? Was John Scott ever her partner and in this timeline was she sent to the storage units in the pilot with Charlie instead of John and Charlie was the one infected?

I think Charlie was the partner who died in this orangeverse timeline's pilot events because of this. And somehow, John Scott never had reason to work covertly against Olivia because somehow, the existence of Peter in their universe prompted this. If John Scott never had reason to work covertly, can we assume there were threats there because of Peter being alive that were not there when he died - threats like the ever mysterious ZFT that people so desperately want answers on.... oooo I hope so! :-)
Well, I do not look at the new history and consider it a "reset." The way I look at it, it just is what it is. Primarily, the differences are those surrounding Peter. So, as long as a situation is associated in some way with Peter - even though it should be that concerning his young life/death - then I have no problem with something different happening. Because it is exactly those occurrances which collapse (the Wave Function Collapse) to form this reality. So I don't see any problem as long as the occurrances surround Peter.

LOL! When I read your OT (Old S1-S3 Timeline) - I thought of "Old Testament" as in the Bible and then the New Timeline is the NT, the New Testament. Peter is then the Christ figure who was sacrificed on the machine for the life of the world, except his works are not in the NT but in the OT. And the NT does not recognize the actions of its savior (will Peter be denied thrice upon his return?) except perhaps by his "second coming." So then does Peter's return usher in the Apocalypse?

You may have something there about Scott vs Charlie. Though I am not sure that another reason for the shapeshifters to get involved and end up killing Charlie to take his place might be construed. Thus she would still be talking about John Scott. So for now I think I would stick with Scott having been the one she was talkign about loosing.

[The Question]

This is Awesome, don't worry about Spoiler stuff in my thread in the context of talking about a new episode that has aired (but I Approve of your when in doubt play it self mentality).

I was newer to the forum when I made that thread, I should have put it in Theories & Spec or something.

In fact maybe I'll see if a moderator can move it.

Again don't worry about talking about later episodes in my What Happened/Didn't Happen Peter thread. It's meant to be a place to list ALL new info as it comes in and discuss it not just whatever stuff happened in that episode and before.


I'm very interested to see how much of a change there is on the ZFT stuff. As we know ZFT were terrorists that had taken Walters work and removed the "chapter of ethics". They were also the Main villain for all of season 1, causing many of the Fringe events. But (correct me if I'm wrong) it seems that Walter never wrote the ZFT in this new timeline. And if he didn't write it, then there was nothing for them to get fanatical about.

I really Hope they don't push the christ metaphor to far. The last thing we need is Joshua Jackson becoming the next Keanu Reeves.:P

[iloveireland]

He found the cure in the sense that he saw Walternet 'invent' it. He didn't say he invented the cure in that sense

[Lij]

He found the cure in the sense that he saw Walternet 'invent' it. He didn't say he invented the cure in that sense
I'm not sure that is true. September would not have been there to distract Walternate. So either Walter did find a cure early and got antcy about Walternate being able to find a cure, or Walternate was not to find a cure ever.

[psychopathicROC]

I'm sure ZFT got written; the war between the worlds, the FP lore (leading to the machine), all of that still happened - the group is undoubedly out there plotting - but the Fringe team has not uncovered it yet, leading to a while new storyline concerning ZFT! ;)

[iloveireland]

I'm not sure that is true. September would not have been there to distract Walternate. So either Walter did find a cure early and got antcy about Walternate being able to find a cure, or Walternate was not to find a cure ever.

I don't think that the Observers can undo their actions, otherwise they would've just done it in the first place, not done all that meddling to get Peter to go into the machine. Therefore, I believe that Walternate was still distracted. Walter did say he went over to the other side to help Peter. If Walternate had the cure, he wouldn't have crossed over. It'd be pointless.

[dolemite]

hmm, as someone brought up earlier i'm curious to know if Nina has a prosthetic arm

we know that Walter was able to see over to the other side (because he knew of Peter)

we knew Carla still existed and died in a fire, She may have still told Nina about what Walter was doing and she may have went and attempted to stop him. however Walter/Nina relationship is different so who knows

[iloveireland]

hmm, as someone brought up earlier i'm curious to know if Nina has a prosthetic arm

we know that Walter was able to see over to the other side (because he knew of Peter)

we knew Carla still existed and died in a fire, She may have still told Nina about what Walter was doing and she may have went and attempted to stop him. however Walter/Nina relationship is different so who knows

I'm still wondering if there is an Altnina. But it seems unlikely, b/c she was dying of cancer on this side and Bell saved her life but there was no Bell on the other side at the time...

[dolemite]

i thought "cancer" was just a lie in order to explain her arm to Olivia

either that or originally this was the storyline, but then when the writers got around to writing "Peter" they changed the reason:confused0006:

[The Question]

I don't think that the Observers can undo their actions, otherwise they would've just done it in the first place, not done all that meddling to get Peter to go into the machine. Therefore, I believe that Walternate was still distracted. Walter did say he went over to the other side to help Peter. If Walternate had the cure, he wouldn't have crossed over. It'd be pointless.

I think one of the things that can easily slip one's mind when thinking about The Observers abilities etc. Is that while, yes they to be able to see Past, Present & Possible Futures all at once. They seem to be slaves to their own lineal timeline that is woven into ours based on their actions and unforeseen consequences arising from them.

Simply put, like he said :yeah: if they could simply undo their actions, they wouldn't be going through all these hoops.


I'm still wondering if there is an Altnina. But it seems unlikely, b/c she was dying of cancer on this side and Bell saved her life but there was no Bell on the other side at the time...

:confused0006:

Nina is full of Half-Truths, while she does credit Bell for "saving her life" and "designing her prosthetic arm personally". I'm pretty sure Nina never had Cancer and that was just her "This Company saved my Life" line. The kind of thing any CEO type would say to reporters when the Truth involved a doorway to another universe etc. :P [Especially if Bell wanted her to keep that a Secret, she would do Anything he asked.]


The Other thing to Remember is that when it comes to the 2 Universes, while Some Things are Similar, Other Things are Different.
So even if Blueverse Nina did have cancer as she said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Redverse Nina ever did.

It's like how Bell lived long in Blueverse but died young in Redverse. And if you want to talk about something other than one different random act of "Chance*", then,


Blueverse Olivia's mother is dead and she has a sister with a child.
Whereas Redverse Bolivia's mother is still alive and her sister died in child birth (Bolivia was concerned herself that she shared some sort of genetic defect or disease that would endanger her own pregnancy).




*I put the word "Chance" in quotations because I'm not entirely Convinced that Bell just "happened to die young in a car accident" in the Redverse. But I find Everything about Bell to be suspect, he just can't be trusted.
Hell, maybe BOTH Nina's DID have Cancer, and Bell saved Both of them. If Soul Magnets and Bell's hints at multiple lifetimes within the paradoxical loop are Any Indication. Then he could probably have been wherever he needed to be or have pre-set something in place to deal with it (assuming it served his interests). And we all know how willing Nina is to keep any secret for Bell.


i thought "cancer" was just a lie in order to explain her arm to Olivia

either that or originally this was the storyline, but then when the writers got around to writing "Peter" they changed the reason:confused0006:

Considering how much Foreshadowing I have been able to find in even the Earliest episodse of Season 1. I like to think that it wasn't just the writers changing things around.
But I suppose that's entirely possible, :confused0006:
anyone else watched any episodes lately that may settle this?

[Lij]

I don't think that the Observers can undo their actions, otherwise they would've just done it in the first place, not done all that meddling to get Peter to go into the machine. Therefore, I believe that Walternate was still distracted. Walter did say he went over to the other side to help Peter. If Walternate had the cure, he wouldn't have crossed over. It'd be pointless.
Then why did not September save Peter as he did in the season 1-3 timeline? If they cannot undo their actions then Peter should not have died in Reiden Lake. Walter says Peter fell through the ice.

The question is basically this: what is the nature of the S4 timeline. Is S4 the original timeline that has been restored or is S4 an invented timeline. Much as I hate the idea it appears that the history that we are learning about is invented and not at all real. Don't ask me how it got invented but it did. Evidently it had to be invented in order to explain Peter's disappearance. And while I suspect the Observers for the inventing the S4 timeline, I still wouldn't implicate them in getting rid of Peter.

[dolemite]

:confused0066: so what your saying is what we've been watching the last 3 seasons esentially is a fake timeline basically created when the observer interfered

and s4 is actually what really happened?

cool thought, but fact is.. is that Peter was never supposed to die (we witnessed it and know that it was the observers fault and he fixed his mistake)

[The Question]

Then why did not September save Peter as he did in the season 1-3 timeline? If they cannot undo their actions then Peter should not have died in Reiden Lake. Walter says Peter fell through the ice.

The question is basically this: what is the nature of the S4 timeline. Is S4 the original timeline that has been restored or is S4 an invented timeline. Much as I hate the idea it appears that the history that we are learning about is invented and not at all real. Don't ask me how it got invented but it did. Evidently it had to be invented in order to explain Peter's disappearance. And while I suspect the Observers for the inventing the S4 timeline, I still wouldn't implicate them in getting rid of Peter.

I was trying to Emphasize the Point I was making; I didn't forget what September supposedly "Undid" in terms of letting Peter die. But if The Observers could simply Go to Any Time/Place at Any Time/Place and have the Ability to Undo any Actions they've Already Taken. Then I could think of hundreds of different solutions that seem so much simpler.

This new timeline seems to something invented for the purpose of the 2 Universes working together to solve the problem together. Why this is so important to The Observers hasn't really been made clear except that their fate seems to be tied with ours (however separate from our Time/Reality they seem to be).

And Yeah, The Observers didn't Erase Peter. September and December were talking and the assignment to "finish the job" and completely erase Peter only came about over a greater concern. From their understanding of things, Peter shouldn't have continued to exist. Both of them were genuinely baffled as to why "traces of him continue to bleed through"




P.S.

I think these "New Shapeshifters" aren't even new.
Not that they are some from 3rd Universe or Walternate being extremely un-constructive. But that they were once the Mercury Bleeding Shifters we all know till some kind of Ripple Effect by the changes in fabric of Time/Space altered them.
Maybe they're rebellious self aware Shapeshifters without a Cause.


-^-"Observe My Shorts! 'Cause I took 'em off Bart's Corpse when I stole his Identity!"---
:@BartMooney@:_________________________________ :observer:

:confused0066: so what your saying is what we've been watching the last 3 seasons esentially is a fake timeline basically created when the observer interfered

and s4 is actually what really happened?

cool thought, but fact is.. is that Peter was never supposed to die (we witnessed it and know that it was the observers fault and he fixed his mistake)

I'm pretty sure Lij was saying that Season 4 is the Invented timeline, not the other way around.

[dolemite]

But if The Observers could simply Go to Any Time/Place at Any Time/Place and have the Ability to Undo any Actions they've Already Taken. Then I could think of hundreds of different solutions that seem so much simpler.


you know they are not about simplicity

firefly shows you that... they are all about the chain reaction complicated mousetrap

there was a comment made by Peter "wouldn't it be simpler to just..." and Walter responded " they're not human. you can't expect them to think like us.."

[The Question]

you know they are not about simplicity

firefly shows you that... they are all about the chain reaction complicated mousetrap

there was a comment made by Peter "wouldn't it be simpler to just..." and Walter responded " they're not human. you can't expect them to think like us.."

Firefly is the only example of that insane amount of complicated chain reaction stuff. I'm pretty sure September did more interfering in that episode than all The Observers combined (in terms of what we've seen so far).

But that's part of my problem with Firefly,
September goes through ALL that to tell Walter about how saving Peter ended up killing the son of his favorite musician, because of a Firefly.

The point is, he talks about interference in the natural order and no matter what there are always Unforeseen Consequences. Then he goes and crashes this into that, throws this dude threw that window, hops from here to there using his "abilities" etc.

Was he just lying to Walter?

I know that the September/December conversations seem to show us that September had been preparing for this "experiment" for a while, but again, unless he was Lying to Walter, hasn't he created thousands of problems in that episode alone?


And the context of the "their not human" conversation is Walter explaining Peter getting hit with the Observer gun so he'd take aspirin, wash it down with the milk (that had the brain repair stuff in it) and have a seizure, thus preventing Walter from drinking it.
Walter goes on to say that he thinks the Observer "meant to save his life"
Peter says something like, "wouldn't it be simpler to just..."
Responded by, "they're not human, you can't expect them to think like us..."

But Walter was lying to Peter, he knew it was about his willingness to let Peter go, to "let him die"


I myself have argued Observer stuff by pointing out the complicated un-human behavior of theirs. And while I totally Agree that they don't think like humans do, it's no fun to just stop at that absolute and not dig any further.
:playball:

[Residents Fan]

I'm still wondering if there is an Altnina. But it seems unlikely, b/c she was dying of cancer on this side and Bell saved her life but there was no Bell on the other side at the time...

Nina said in the Pilot that she used to be an athlete before she started working for MD. I wonder
was that true, or did she have some other career before working for MD?

[Ophelia's Hamlet]

Firefly is the only example of that insane amount of complicated chain reaction stuff. I'm pretty sure September did more interfering in that episode than all The Observers combined (in terms of what we've seen so far).

But that's part of my problem with Firefly,
September goes through ALL that to tell Walter about how saving Peter ended up killing the son of his favorite musician, because of a Firefly.

The point is, he talks about interference in the natural order and no matter what there are always Unforeseen Consequences. Then he goes and crashes this into that, throws this dude threw that window, hops from here to there using his "abilities" etc.

Was he just lying to Walter?

I know that the September/December conversations seem to show us that September had been preparing for this "experiment" for a while, but again, unless he was Lying to Walter, hasn't he created thousands of problems in that episode alone?


And the context of the "their not human" conversation is Walter explaining Peter getting hit with the Observer gun so he'd take aspirin, wash it down with the milk (that had the brain repair stuff in it) and have a seizure, thus preventing Walter from drinking it.
Walter goes on to say that he thinks the Observer "meant to save his life"
Peter says something like, "wouldn't it be simpler to just..."
Responded by, "they're not human, you can't expect them to think like us..."

But Walter was lying to Peter, he knew it was about his willingness to let Peter go, to "let him die"


I myself have argued Observer stuff by pointing out the complicated un-human behavior of theirs. And while I totally Agree that they don't think like humans do, it's no fun to just stop at that absolute and not dig any further.
:playball:
Well, there is another episode with chain reactions, although it's not an :observer: doing it. Perhaps you should be more specific! :P Or did you forget "The Plateau"?
...Hm. About their interference, perhaps that was because he knew that that timeline would soon be nonexistent.
And I don't think Walter really knew what it was about at the time, although maybe he later realized it.