The Hat Trick that Blows this Ep. 19 outta the water! I present to you...

[ShogunOrta]

...if it hasn't already been presented yet. Seriously, I have the sneaky suspicion SOMEBODY has come up with this before. But alright, here it goes. One of the big premises about this latest episode that stuck out for people was that, per say, this 2036 Future that was presented would be THE FUTURE that the show was headed towards. I myself wrote out a thread that exclaimed just that on here. But now, I digress from that claim, only because there is a glimmer of Fringe weirdness that may make this latest Ep. 19 possibly null and void...AGAIN!

Basically, it is the simple matter of the blue-print for the machine that Walter displays during the episode. Well in the Ep. he explains that this is a blue-print for a machine to take down the Observers. Well, then I read a post by another on here who exclaimed that THAT machine looked like a smaller version of the large machine that we've all come to know a love. And everybody knows what that machine can do!

So, if we simply continue with the general story arch that this Ep. 19 seemed to be posing, that the Fringe Team's duty in that future was to eventually create the large machine again (though I don't know if they actually will use it to destroy the observers) I mean all the right ingredients are present there in that new 2036 Future as were present in the future depicted in Season 3. Practically the only thing that is changed is the "enemy" being fought in the presented future. Peter is there, Walter is there, the machine is going to be there eventually, and hence, even this 2036 Future can be effectively rubbed out of existence just as Season 3's Future seemed to have been.

Seriously, I still stand by the opinion that Peter is in fact still stuck in the Machine that he got into toward the end of Season 3, we've all just been watching iterations of how he's going to "reformat" the universe given the power that the machine has given him, .................And this entire debacle is going to get saved by a straight up Deus Ex Machina (or maybe a Peter ex Machina, or even a William Bell ex machina perhaps).

I mean think about it, this season has almost become a more condensed version of seasons 1-3 into a weird fractal form where the same concepts are presented but using different ingredients.

[phx219]

So that they're going to build the machine and send it into the past again to try again? IDK...

[ag86]

Interesting. So you think that the 2036 future we've seen is the first building of the machine? That seems like it would wrap things up nicely.

[ShogunOrta]

Well, I mean in Season 3 when they went to the Future then - that was actually the first building of the machine - but this is the 2nd first building of the machine to coincide with the fractal do-over nature of this fourth season. I do recall in an earlier episode of Season 3 or 4 where they brought in a fractal aspect to all the fringe events they kept seeing.

Ah, but then again, the machine Walter's going to maybe build in this latest 2036 might not even be the machine that can do Time Travel. So, you know, again this theory is only loosely do-able, completely a Gut Theory.

[ShogunOrta]

And I know, phx219, I'd rather that when this show progresses the story, that that progression will finally for once have some staying power. Not that they haven't done that before - when Peter came back, he Really came back for good - but in terms of the main story arch it would be nice to see something stick.

[Omniscient_Jay]

This presumes that the "Anti-Observer" machine is the same as the Vacuum Machine, and that the Vacuum Machine was sent back from future to past in this rewritten timeline, both of which are contestable claims.

This point aside, I agree with phx219 that this would be a bit of a re-hash. Not only that, but it would mean that there is another Loop in effect, so they've already sent the Machine back already, furthermore meaning they've already succeeded (just as Peter created the Bridge the moment the 2026 Cycle of Destruction was formed). It was cool back in S3, but I would prefer to explore different temporal gymnastics.

[E.G.Nirf]

Well! I hope not, but I can see it! If I remember the sequence of events right: Peter entered the machine, traveled to 2026, they sent the machine back, Peter returned, stepped out of the machine, end of loop! If Peter is still in the machine, the loop could still be intact! All of the characters we saw in 4:19 could have been from the season 1-3 timeline! I don't remember any callbacks to season 4! Jeepers! I hope they don't pull something like that!

[MassivelyDynamic]

I'd rather if they didn't pull a Deus Ex Machina here.

[phx219]

Well, the location of Walter's brain parts and the fact that Belly is *alive* both prove that 4.19 is not the same timeline as S1-3...

[ShogunOrta]

Ah, good point phx219 about the brain matter and Bell. But I'm not trying to say that 4.19 is the same timeline. I am saying that it is something of a Fractal timeline. Meaning that sorta the same stuff happens, but then sorta different things also happen, yet the overall pattern (like a fractal pattern) stays the same. But I feel that this type of Fractal timeline will be coming to a conclusion shortly...

[phx219]

Well S4 was a rewrite of S1-3 and this is a possible future of the rewritten S4 layered on top of all the previously loops. Its possible that it might be very similar in content to a pre S1-3 timeline, but it is definately a new, current, "top layer" timeline post S4, unless you're one of the people that think Peter may still be in the machine.

[ShogunOrta]

Eh, I consider it a.....possibility that Peter is still in the machine. I can't base it on anything that is more than a feeling. or at least if he isn't, there is some kind of tangible relationship there beyond the machine only responds to him. In other words, I dunno.

[E.G.Nirf]

Well, the location of Walter's brain parts and the fact that Belly is *alive* both prove that 4.19 is not the same timeline as S1-3...
Every time I make a specific determination about Fringe and begin digging to find proof, I find myself in a "did they or didn't they" situation!
I'm not certain that it can be determined that Bell was dead in S 1-3 or that anybody but Walter knew where his brain parts were!

[phx219]

Uhh... In S1-S3, Walter didn't eve know that he was missing brain parts until it was discovered during an investigation, where those brain pieces were actually implanted into other people for safe keeping and to protect the knowledge. Currently we see that they are stored properly the entire time in MD. Previously, we saw that Bell was dead, because we *saw him die* and then had the whole Soul-Magnets plot. This time, he is obviously, physically still alive This is all stuff that has been determined completely!

[E.G.Nirf]

Uhh... In S1-S3, Walter didn't eve know that he was missing brain parts until it was discovered during an investigation, where those brain pieces were actually implanted into other people for safe keeping and to protect the knowledge. Currently we see that they are stored properly the entire time in MD. Previously, we saw that Bell was dead, because we *saw him die* and then had the whole Soul-Magnets plot. This time, he is obviously, physically still alive This is all stuff that has been determined completely!



Uhhh ... I'm really not in to defending a storyline I don't think will happen and certainly don't want to happen! I'm just saying there's lots of loose ends and brain parts lying around! Yes they were implanted in other people! In "Grey Matters" Thomas Newton tracked them all down and took back the parts. Then he kidnapped Walter and reinstalled them, supposedly for the purpose of learning how to get to the other side! Here is the pertinent passage from the conclusion of Act IV of the transcript:
"At his former house on Green Street, Walter continues to be interrogated by Newton. Walter seems much more responsive in the new 'stimulating' environment. Walter remembers that the last time he was there in his house, the leaves were falling. Newton tells him that where they are now exists in both places, but on his side, the trees died long ago from the Blight. The procedure continues and the missing pieces of Walter's brain re-connect with Walter. The old Walter is suddenly present... he is in his house and wants to know where his wife and son are. Newton sticks to his agenda. He knows why Walter built the door between universes. He knows what Walter lost. He doesn't think that Walter wants to lose it again... he wants to know about the door. "

They take Walter back to the hospital to be checked out by Dr. Paris! Passage from the end of Act VI:




After returning to the hospital, Walter (http://**********************.net/wiki/Walter) settles in for another MRI just to make certain all is well in the void between his ears. Peter (http://**********************.net/wiki/Peter_Bishop) humbly apologizes to Walter for not visiting him while he was in St. Claire's (http://**********************.net/wiki/St._Claire%27s). The procedure begins, with Peter waiting dutifully outside, and Walter fades away into a vision of his past. He is wearing a cranial electrode ring, and an operating room technician is telling Doctor Paris that Walter is ready. In the bright, blurry light, Doctor Paris approaches Walter and is revealed to be William Bell (http://**********************.net/wiki/William_Bell). Walter tells William that he is frightened, and uncomfortable. Bell consoles Walter, but affirms that what Walter has accomplished, a door to the other side (http://**********************.net/wiki/Parallel_Universe), is too dangerous, and that he will put Walter's memory in a place that only he can find.

OK, Bell! We didn't see him die! From Over There Part 2 Act XI:


Inside the theater, Walter grows frantic at the thought they don't have enough power to make this work. Olivia alone is strong enough to take everybody across with her. Bell calms Walter down and explains in simple terms what he was trying to tell him before. He, William Bell, will be the power source. His frequent travels between universes have left his atoms in a delicate state - with the slightest of provocation, his atoms should split apart and provide more than enough energy to transit universes. Walter finally understands and sadly nods in agreement, he never should have doubted his old friend. Walter activates the device gives his thanks for the help. Bell has a gift for Walter before he leaves - Why did he remove parts of Walter's brain? Because Walter asked him to. Because of what Walter was becoming. As the assault team forces entry, Bell places his hands on the energy bubble that has begun to encompass the science team. The bubble expands and grows brighter, and when it begins to fade, the traveler’s stand on the stage in the dilapidated theater in this universe. Broyles welcomes the three of them back. Bell did not make the trip.

Soul Magnets! Nobody ever said a person had to be dead to inhabit another body! At the end of LSD when they're trying to send Bell into the computer, Walter says it didn't work, assuming that Bell was gone! Who knows?

Ummmm! I don't know! Seems like there are plenty of loose ends lying around for TPTB to do what ever they want!

[phx219]

That was a memory of how Walter lost his memory to begin with, and they were then implanted into other people. At the end of the episode the brain pieces degraded and were lost. They could not have been put into a MD vault.

We didn't *see* Bell die, but we saw his physical form *disappear* as it coudln't handle phasing universes another time, and his energy was used to help the rest, or whatever happened. True, we don't know what did happen, but to see the supposed end of his physical body, and then see his consciousness contacted in a non corporeal way, does not mesh very well with a physically intact, mentally whole Bell as we see in 4.19. Its extremely unlikely, thats all. I didn't need script excerpts, but I appreciate your efforts.

[ShogunOrta]

Ah, and so do you guys think that our seeing Bell encased in Amber had anything to do with the rewrite of the universes by the machine? I mean, though he may not have died he did disappear in that episode! But there he was again, in the Future. Also, in this latest episode, I forgot what Walter was actually going to do with Bell's cut off hand?

[E.G.Nirf]

That was a memory of how Walter lost his memory to begin with, and they were then implanted into other people. At the end of the episode the brain pieces degraded and were lost. They could not have been put into a MD vault.

We didn't *see* Bell die, but we saw his physical form *disappear* as it coudln't handle phasing universes another time, and his energy was used to help the rest, or whatever happened. True, we don't know what did happen, but to see the supposed end of his physical body, and then see his consciousness contacted in a non corporeal way, does not mesh very well with a physically intact, mentally whole Bell as we see in 4.19. Its extremely unlikely, thats all. I didn't need script excerpts, but I appreciate your efforts.

We've always known that the writers can fix anything they want! There's probably a hundred other "glitches" that would make a "Peter in The Machine" story improbable! It just appears to me that they would have enough wiggle room to come up with that storyline if they wanted! As far as your comments, what Ep are you talking about? "Grey Matters?" If that was a flashback to when Walter lost his brain parts ... why was Peter there? All of this still begs the question anyway? Why would they want to write it that way?

[phx219]

we were never told what he was going to do with the hand, and it is absolutely a result of the "rewrite" - No Peter to be rescued, no need for the team to need Bell's sacrifice for them to get home. We'll hopefully see what Bell is up to in the next 3 episodes!

[phx219]

What you quoted says its a vision of his past; We are seeing when the brain pieces were removed initially, at the end of the episode. They are then lost, degraded. They never have an opportunity to end up in MD in storage.

[ShogunOrta]

Welp, again either a Deus Ex machina is going to save this ship from sinking....or my other bet is that this is going to end along the lines that that movie Butterfly Effect did. Though, I'm not sure if that's what they already attempted with trying to erase Peter, and even that didn't work. Doh!

[E.G.Nirf]

For sure! I'm also wondering why Bell was in the amber to start with! I've got to go back and rewatch 4:19. Did Walter have a saw or knife or something to cut off the hand?

[phx219]

I'm guessing he had something in the lab we never saw to cut the hand off with. The episode was very fast paced.

[Omniscient_Jay]

I'm guessing he had something in the lab we never saw to cut the hand off with. The episode was very fast paced.

Actually, Walter did have some small tool.

Here's the scene in question, for your convenience (the Bell scene is near the end):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9E06SWOprQ

[ShogunOrta]

Ah, so he had the Dr. Who Wand!

[December619]

What you quoted says its a vision of his past; We are seeing when the brain pieces were removed initially, at the end of the episode. They are then lost, degraded. They never have an opportunity to end up in MD in storage.

Yes, but remember Season 4's 'Peter Reset'. This pretty much gives the writers free reign to change anything they want from seasons 1-3. Walter's brain pieces AND Bell's whereabouts can be up in the air. Personally, I think the soul magnets may not have even been activated yet in this time line. That would convenient for Bellie to come back huh?

-------

"I Like Animals"

[phx219]

Yes, the reset is the whole point. The reset is the reason why Walter's brain pieces are in MD, and the reason that Bell is alive. If his body is physically alive (which we saw) and hasn't been disintegrated by crossing universes (S2 finale), then of course the soul magnets have not been used. They were to bring his consciousness back, which isn't necessary (or probably) since his body is still intact (which we see encased in the Amber.)

although, hilarious Star Trek III parallels there for Nimoy, if the soul magnets were used to restore him to his proper body... XD