"Zeno"

[D-Roc]

http://www.fringe-forum.com/forums/images/img/zeno.JPG


Anyone have any ideas on the relevance of "ZENO"? It was written on Olivia's "uncle's Kayak" during her synaptic dream with John Scott. It was falling out of the sky and appeared to her before the scene changed to one, which I'm assuming, is from her childhood (dolls houses etc).

This must have some relevance..what is it about Olivia's uncle that we need to be looking out for? How does Zeno tie-in (I'm assuming it's not a kayak brand:p)

I've tried to search google for "Zeno", but all i've come across so far is the Philosopher Zeno of Elea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea), who is best known for his paradoxes.


Zeno's paradoxes have puzzled, challenged, influenced, inspired, infuriated, and amused philosophers, mathematicians, physicists and school children for over two millennia. The most famous are the so-called "arguments against motion" described by Aristotle in his PhysicsHmm..:detective:

EDIT: Does anyone know what that symbol represents..the one that looks a bit like an "A"?

[leeree]

I'm pretty sure the 'A' is (part) of the Anarchy symbol.
(It won't let me use image tags?)
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zenoac2.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anarchyeh8.jpg

'Zeno' could be the canoe brand. :P

[5starboss]

my .02......

****brand name like leeree said
****her uncle's name???

****some type of "travel" device not a traditional water tarnsport...but mind travel or something weird.


Since JScott turned out to be a plant, he had other info floating in his head that could be transferred thru the LSD dream trip.

does that make any sense?

[leeree]

Yes, it does. However, I remember Olivia says it's her Uncle's boat... why would Scott be thinking of that?

[5starboss]

1st why was the kayak there?
2nd why "Zeno"?

If they're sharing a dream, the kayak entered for some reason. It's a mode of travel. Zeno could have been stamped onto the kayak by JScott's memory. His memory may contain information from MD labs.....such as a machine ( named Zeno) that shares dreams or projects US Navy ship coordinates to people in comas and what not.

She wasn't supposed to see it and may not have known what Zeno meant.

I was brainstorming about Zeno and just wrote some of it down.

[dawsonfire24]

Hey all, i just found this site, some really good stuff going up on these posts!
Zeno DOES have something to do with travel I found this interesting:
http://www.massivedynamic.com/aerospace_and_transportation.php

What's next? Travel time follows a power law, decreasing by a given factor year by year. MD's Zeno-Transit Initiative aims to take that process to the limit, making near-instantaneous travel a reality in your lifetime.

The term ZENO has something to do with what is called "Quantum Zeno Effect" Which absolutely has me clueless. The Zeno effect was named after the Philosopher, who's paradoxes are most fameous for arguing that all motion is an illusion. Coming full circle: Zeno transit would be a paradox in its self. Another interesting idea is that it also has something to do with the brain. Once again, the literature was a bit dry and contained far to many big words for me to attempt to understand without the risk of hemmoraging
This is the material i found online.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect#Experiments_and_discussion

[Laurie]

Interesting. I had just assumed it was the name of the kayak (not the brand, but what the uncle named it). It is a weird name for a boat, though.

The "A" is interesting, because it isn't quite an anarchy symbol. I hadn't even noticed it before this thread!

[leeree]

The "A" is interesting, because it isn't quite an anarchy symbol. I hadn't even noticed it before this thread!

Yeah, you're right, it isn't (I said it was 'part' of it). But I know of no other symbol in which there is an 'A' with the middle going farther than the outline of the letter.

There are tons of references in LOST to scientists and philosophers, and others (like the name's of some characters). We know from dawsonfire that Zeno was a philosopher... it could just be the brand, and a reference to Zeno, or, like 5starboss said, some kind of machine that either Olivia or Scott was thinking of at the time.

[D-Roc]

Interesting stuff,

I like the similarities with the Anarchy symbol, lee. It's fairly similar.

I didn't even think of the kayak representing 'travel'..ala 'time-travel'..that's an excellent connection 5starboss!

Snap! Thanks for connecting the dots dawsonfire, I half-heartedly referenced Zeno of Elea, but you've solidified his and MD's relevance in all of this.:cheers9:

So from what I can work out, Massive Dynamic have (or are in the process of) invented a time-travel device named after, or using his analysis of Zeno.

It's quite difficult to get my head around 'how' their time-travel works, but this might help:


an unstable particle, if observed continuously, will never decay.[1] One can nearly ”freeze” the evolution of the system by measuring it frequently enough in its (known) initial state. The meaning of the term has since expanded, leading to a more technical definition: time evolution can be suppressed not only by measurement: The quantum Zeno effect is the suppression of unitary time evolution caused by quantum decoherence in quantum systems provided by a variety of sources: measurement, interactions with the environment, stochastic fields, and so on.[2] As an outgrowth of study of the quantum Zeno effect, it has become clear that application to a system of sufficiently strong and fast pulses with appropriate symmetry also can decouple the system from its decohering environment.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect#Experiments_and_discussion

Correct me if I'm wrong but MD's vision for "near instantaneous travel", is through 'time evolution' and 'freezing' an objects interaction with it's environment??

I have a headache:faintthud:

[zadok]

Zeno's Paradox:
http://mathforum.org/isaac/problems/zeno1.html

[D-Roc]

Thanks for the link, I think it's beginning to make more sense now.

I was thinking, we've mentioned the "A"-ish symbol and the possible relevance of the word "ZENO"..but what about the four circles - 3 green and one red - could they have any meaning?

[GaBa73]

Is this the machine you're talking about??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_machine

Zeno's arrow paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_arrow_paradox) - since an arrow in flight is not seen to move during any single instant, it cannot possibly be moving at all.

[D-Roc]

Is this the machine you're talking about??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_machine
:eek: Oh wow, I didn't even know it had a wiki article of it's own.

The fact that JJ and co. are bringing conceptual models of possible science into the public domain is, well, it's so refreshing:



Some people claim that while Zeno machines are an interesting mathematical concept, they cannot be physically realized. One argument for this position is that because the operations need to be performed exponentially faster, sooner or later certain physical components would need to move faster than the speed of light, which is physically impossible.

Are Zeno machines logically possible?

Other people claim that Zeno machines aren't even logically coherent. For example, consider a Zeno machine that continues to alternatively write different outputs, or a Zeno machine that will keep moving its writehead to the left, regardless of what symbols are on the tape. It seems clear that these machines will never stop, and the possibility of Zeno machines suggests that after a certain amount of time, the Zeno machine is done, as it will have completed an infinite number of operations. Hence, some people claim that the possibility of Zeno machines leads to a logical contradiction, thus making Zeno machines logically impossible. Indeed, some people regard the logical impossibility of Zeno machines as just another instance of the logical impossibility of supertasks in general, other examples of which include Zeno's paradox, Thomson's lamp, and the Balls and vase problem.
I'm wondering, if Zeno machines on their own are (according to the above quote) 'logically impossible', what if they were used in conjunction with something else which therefore makes it possible? I'm thinking that the word Zeno was written on the kayak, so that leads me to think not only (time) 'travel' (as mentioned by 5starboss), but also 'water', since kayak's are used in water.

Now I'm no scientist, but I wonder whether Massive Dynamic have found a way to successfully make a functioning ZENO machine by combining it's it another element..such as water, or something that will erradicate the paradoxes.

Btw, excellent find Gabs!

[GaBa73]

Or is JJ playing with us...the zeno paradox...since the kayak is not seen to move during any single instant, it cannot possibly be moving at all. It is tru...isn't it....

[5starboss]

Is this the machine you're talking about??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_machine

Zeno's arrow paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_arrow_paradox) - since an arrow in flight is not seen to move during any single instant, it cannot possibly be moving at all.




As far as a machine or device.....i was thinking some type of space-age super high tech gadget that developed from massive D. If Scott was a "bad guy" and had inside info, he may have subconsiously brought up secret info in the dream....

[D-Roc]

Or is JJ playing with us...the zeno paradox...since the kayak is not seen to move during any single instant, it cannot possibly be moving at all. It is tru...isn't it....
I get the feeling that the Zeno device isolates the time-traveller and moves time and space around it. This might account for the kayak not moving, although this is pure speculation and I'll need to rewatch that scene to have a better grasp of what is depicted.

[cdesperado]

I just found this on the Massive Dynamic website:

"What's next? Travel time follows a power law, decreasing by a given factor year by year. MD's Zeno-Transit Initiative aims to take that process to the limit, making near-instantaneous travel a reality in your lifetime."

http://www.massivedynamic.com/aerospace_and_transportation.php

[cdesperado]

Oh... PS, that was in the Aerospace and Transportation section.

[D-Roc]

I just found this on the Massive Dynamic website:

"What's next? Travel time follows a power law, decreasing by a given factor year by year. MD's Zeno-Transit Initiative aims to take that process to the limit, making near-instantaneous travel a reality in your lifetime."

http://www.massivedynamic.com/aerospace_and_transportation.php
Yup, it was mentioned above somewhere - it's really facinating isn't it!

It's amazing to consider just how 'possible' something like this is in real-life..especially considering the show is supposed to be bringing us science which is either possible..or possible in the not too distant future.

Perhaps this is why it's only "near instantaneous" and not "instantaneous" ;)

[oddjob6]

As for the A. I think it's one of those old school compasses used for navigation and charting paths and an appropriate symbol for a high-end kayak like the one pictured.

Compass:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Compass_(drafting).jpg/450px-Compass_(drafting).jpg

I am a kayaker and I sail and that was the first thing that came to my mind.

As for Zeno I have no idea other than it's the reverse of onez (kind of like ones.. eh a stretch) and an anagram for Zone (Abrams said one of his influences for the show was the Twilight Zone).

[leeree]

Good idea, oddjob. It does look a lot like the compass.

I still think it's a reference to Zeno the Anarchist... more info in my theory about Zeno. (http://www.fringe-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415)

[D-Roc]

I would never have thought of the compass similarities, nice one. It could be an allusion to 'bearings' (or as you mentioned, navigation)..setting the exact bearings for time-travel or something?

[Deknor]

It appears that if my findings are correct, the symbol is NOT the anarchy symbol. But instead it represents disordered intellect or confused mental state, which fits perfectly with any of Zeno's puzzles.

http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/39/3931.html

thats where I found the symbol. Or what I believe it more likely to mean.

[socioevo]

I get the feeling that the Zeno device isolates the time-traveller and moves time and space around it. This might account for the kayak not moving, although this is pure speculation and I'll need to rewatch that scene to have a better grasp of what is depicted.

The kayak IS the Zeno Device: Behold, the answer!

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/kayak.png

-socioevo

[Wondermind]

:eek: Oh wow, I didn't even know it had a wiki article of it's own.

The fact that JJ and co. are bringing conceptual models of possible science into the public domain is, well, it's so refreshing:

I'm wondering, if Zeno machines on their own are (according to the above quote) 'logically impossible', what if they were used in conjunction with something else which therefore makes it possible? I'm thinking that the word Zeno was written on the kayak, so that leads me to think not only (time) 'travel' (as mentioned by 5starboss), but also 'water', since kayak's are used in water.

Now I'm no scientist, but I wonder whether Massive Dynamic have found a way to successfully make a functioning ZENO machine by combining it's it another element..such as water, or something that will erradicate the paradoxes.

Btw, excellent find Gabs!

"A" could also stand for Alchemy...the combining of 2 elements into 1 aka: hybrid!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

[SUNNYDUPREE]

So if we were to assume that the two agents were in a dream like state then their world would be composed of dream symbols and all that comes with them.
When Dunham first started dreaming she was in a junk yard (I find that interesting) Then it starts to change and she sees things that would have meaning to her the sky kayak and then when she merges with Scott(stranger that they merge in a desert) they are on solid ground with his dream symbols of authority, the FBI Seal.
To make a long story even longer the kayak could be a symbol of Dunhams life and the FBI Scotts. The kayak could mean how she is moving through life. A boat, kyak, ship what have you symbolizes your body. I have seen this in life and in books.
Ok for the big sum up... I do not think that there is a time machine at all. I think that they have discovered how to harness the power of the mind to be able to move through space and time.
Isnt there a quantum physics concept that if you get small enough in the size of things that everything exists at one time? up down right left past and future. Not as small as vibrating strings but pretty small.

[D-Roc]

It appears that if my findings are correct, the symbol is NOT the anarchy symbol. But instead it represents disordered intellect or confused mental state, which fits perfectly with any of Zeno's puzzles.

http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/39/3931.html

thats where I found the symbol. Or what I believe it more likely to mean.
Good find. That's the closest looking symbol to the one on the kayak that I have seen. 'Confused Mental State' is certainly a possible description of what Olivia (and John) were going through.


The kayak IS the Zeno Device: Behold, the answer!

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/kayak.png

-socioevo
Haha, you never know!;)


"A" could also stand for Alchemy...the combining of 2 elements into 1 aka: hybrid!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy
That's an interesting one - I like the hybrid angle, after all the kayak itself us in a way symbol of at least two elements/forces.


So if we were to assume that the two agents were in a dream like state then their world would be composed of dream symbols and all that comes with them.
When Dunham first started dreaming she was in a junk yard (I find that interesting) Then it starts to change and she sees things that would have meaning to her the sky kayak and then when she merges with Scott(stranger that they merge in a desert) they are on solid ground with his dream symbols of authority, the FBI Seal.
To make a long story even longer the kayak could be a symbol of Dunhams life and the FBI Scotts. The kayak could mean how she is moving through life. A boat, kyak, ship what have you symbolizes your body. I have seen this in life and in books.
Ok for the big sum up... I do not think that there is a time machine at all. I think that they have discovered how to harness the power of the mind to be able to move through space and time.
Isnt there a quantum physics concept that if you get small enough in the size of things that everything exists at one time? up down right left past and future. Not as small as vibrating strings but pretty small.
Yeah, I also find the scrapyard aspect interesting - was this perhaps to reflect Olivia's own self-worth at this time? Did she feel that her life would be worthless without John?

I agree that the images and items in the dream state is very symbolic of Olivia and John's merging fears, anxieties, feelings and emotions (etc). Two lives brought together via a dream. It's just packed with overtones and hints as to what the writers were trying to convey.

You pose an interesting thought - time-travel without a time-machine. I would agree with this, in that I don't think there necessarily has to be a 'machine' to facilitate time-travel. Although the technology (or science) behind the movement of the consciousness through time and space, might be represented by a machine or a symbol. I guess the synaptic transfer dream is a good example of this - although it was a coming together of mental states, machinery and science was still involved (the chamber, the computer monitors etc).:confused0006:

I'm pretty open-minded about how they will portray time-travel in the show, although they will have to go some to out-do "LOST's" portrayal!

[D-Roc]

I found this interesting article on Wired.com - it mentions a ZENO robot from the future. This probably doesn't tie in directly to our show, but I thought i'd post it for the obvious parallels which could be drawn/speculated:


When roboticist David Hanson thinks of the future, he fears that man will accidentally create a super-sentient artificial intelligence that is heartless and clinically insane.


So to save the world, he formed Hanson Robotics and built Zeno, a 17-inch robot boy, who smiles, laughs, recognizes your face and remembers your name.


Fending off the end of the world may be a heavy mantle to hang on the shoulders of a 17-inch robot that's still in prototype stage, but Hanson does call Zeno the superhero of the singularity.


"We want to be damn sure that by the time [robots] become as smart as we are, they have a conscience and compassion and that we are friends.," Hanson said. "There's no guarantee. They could be psychotic."


Zeno is himself a visitor from the future — a robot who reached consciousness in 2029, but is found by government web crawlers. From there he's put into a government academy for artificially intelligent robots, where those in charge may have nefarious motives.


"The world will need a superintelligent hero," Hanson said. "Superintelligent agents are also able to spawn technology that could destroy us all."
Continue reading article (http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/toy-robot-inten.html)

:happy15:

[queenbeesteph]

It seems Mr. Esterbrook has the symbol on his jacket. So whatever the aleph symbol represents, it seems Mr. Esterbrook is a part of it.

[Hymenoptera]

There are important connections between the Aleph and the Zeno Paradoxes:

http://cogprints.org/6043/1/TheAlephZeroOrZeroDichotomy.pdf

The Zeno Paradoxes and the Aleph are also connected to Quantum Mechanics, particularly theories of Quantum Computing and Quantum theories of human consciousness. When combined, these theories seem to point towards Artificial Intelligence.

Two real-world figures in these fields are Roger Penrose and John S. Bell. Roger Penrose discovered the Penrose Tiling, which is intrinsically connected to Fibonacci Numbers and the Golden Ratio, two concepts integral to Fringe.

Claus Penrose and William Bell are characters on Fringe.

I'm not a scientist. I'm just experienced in the art of Google and Wikipedia. ;-)

[D-Roc]

It seems Mr. Esterbrook has the symbol on his jacket. So whatever the aleph symbol represents, it seems Mr. Esterbrook is a part of it.
There's been several arguments over what the symbol is, from being an Anarchy symbol to the Phonecian "A", but referring to it as an 'Aleph' gives it a bit more context.


There are important connections between the Aleph and the Zeno Paradoxes:

http://cogprints.org/6043/1/TheAlephZeroOrZeroDichotomy.pdf

The Zeno Paradoxes and the Aleph are also connected to Quantum Mechanics, particularly theories of Quantum Computing and Quantum theories of human consciousness. When combined, these theories seem to point towards Artificial Intelligence.

Two real-world figures in these fields are Roger Penrose and John S. Bell. Roger Penrose discovered the Penrose Tiling, which is intrinsically connected to Fibonacci Numbers and the Golden Ratio, two concepts integral to Fringe.

Claus Penrose and William Bell are characters on Fringe.
I'm not a scientist. I'm just experienced in the art of Google and Wikipedia. ;-)
Nice bringing together of some of the pieces there. I'm intrigued by the A.I. notion:confused0006:

[queenbeesteph]

With the amazingness (I made that word up, sorry! lol!) of Nina's robot arm, I have wondered if the observer(s) was some kind of artificial intelligent being, biomechanical in nature, "constructed" to keep an eye on the canister and whatever else. Walter said the plant creature was partially organic in nature (the dna)... could the observer (or even someone else that we haven't recognized yet) be partially organic in nature (like the heart creature) and also partially mechanically (like Nina's arm)?

[Scully]

It seems Mr. Esterbrook has the symbol on his jacket. So whatever the aleph symbol represents, it seems Mr. Esterbrook is a part of it.

The symbol for ‘Alpha’, is derived from the Phoenician letter ‘Aleph’. This sideways 'A' is actually the symbol for Aleph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_%28letter%29). Alpha is used to refer to ‘the beginning and the end‘ or ‘the most significant occurrence‘.

At first I thought they were just using it to refer to the beginning of the series, but then when it showed up on Esterbrooks' lapel is got me thinking that it must be something much more significant.

Interesting theories on Zeno...I wonder if it might simply be the name of another bad guy group...like Massive Dynamic or ZFT ? It might answer the question of who Agent Loeb actually works for.