The Observer's Motives!

[empty_encounters]

Okay try to follow me on this, I really think I'm on to something.

There are two realities. Well, Walter said there were an infinite number. But there are only two because only two were similar enough to 'touch'. And those realities only exist because those are the only realities that are observed. The infinite other realities are not observed and therefore don't exist; they could have, but no longer, once a determined path is taken.

If X can result in Y or Z, both Y and Z exist. But once X is found to result in Z, Y no longer exists. And the only way for that to happen is for the answer to be observed.

The Observers solidify a path. One, deterministic path. That is their purpose.

Most of the infinite realities, by the butterfly effect of small events leading to universal events, break from the path and collapse into failed variables.

What we are left with is only two, that touch each other. And the Observers are bound by a purpose, that they must solidify one path.

So why did they observe Walter curing Peter? They have been at major historical events. Surely a cure for an incredibly rare genetic disease can't alter the human race. So why observe it at all?

Because of Walter. Because they know he is the most powerful mind in the universe. But Walter is still only a human and limited.

So consider this, curing Peter was impossible. Completely impossible by all human means, except for the most infinitely driven and thoughtful fervor. They know only one path can solidify.

So September decides to go observe the two Walters. He does this because he feels that if only one of them can cure Peter, that will be enough of a point of divergence for the one final path to solidify. They have all looked for events like this but all of them have failed to cause one universe to have a true path and one universe to only be potential. But September feels like perhaps an act of genius like Walter's can be of that kind of significance.

And then he is seen, and the current chain of events have arisen, as so.

[jade86]

I think the Observers observed only Walternate.

[Montecito]

So consider this, curing Peter was impossible. Completely impossible by all human means, except for the most infinitely driven and thoughtful fervor.


But..since Peter was cured then it wasn't impossible.. i can't really understand what you are trying to say..:what:

[Za Lords Lt.]

So why did they observe Walter curing Peter? They have been at major historical events. Surely a cure for an incredibly rare genetic disease can't alter the human race. So why observe it at all?



That would probably change, like, a lot of stuff. Cures for fatal illnesses, even if they're super rare, are usually sort of a big deal.

Anyway, the rest of you're post is fantastic, and mind-bendy and awesome. My only quibble with it is this: the Observers keep saying how important it is for Peter to live. I think it's more likely that September wanted to observe Walternate discovering the cure because it would be the even that saved this very important boy.

Yours is way more science-y though. I kinda like yours better.

[jade86]

I think it's more likely that September wanted to observe Walternate discovering the cure because it would be the even that saved this very important boy.


I agree! I also think that the Observers were always in the parallel universe because in that dimension was born a special boy.

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

I just wish they'd get on with it and start hinting at how and why Peter is special!! And didn't walter say he MADE Peter special??? Like the girl that was kidnapped by the Observer? So how did Walter MAKE him special? Was that the 'cure'?

You would think that the event to solidify one path/one reality would be bringing Peter back to his original reality. But they obviously don't want that to happen...

[The_war_is_already_on]

I think the observers motives, and peters specialness may be a big part of the main arc, and thus, unlikely to resolve soon. Just my guess, but they will probably drop way more hints rather than tell us.

The observers do clearly have some form of "stake" in the events surrounding the war and fringe events, as well as a "stake" in peter.

I dont think its just about preserving the timeline, or some other thing. That wouldnt be satisfying as a mystery reveal. What they are actually doing is working toward some very specific goal, that is connected to the war, but also opportunistic rather than picking sides per se.

My theory is that their stake, is that they are peters decendants, or anscenstors, or somehow genetically related to humanity, in our current form. Evolution is a big them, in the show, as are genes, and the bishop family line seems to be somehow connected to peters specialness too.

[jade86]

I was observing the old prophecy and i noted that the superior part of the machine looks like a pediment of a temple. If you observe closely, there are some decorations typical of the ancient temples. In my imagination i see Peter like an ancient divinity in his temple.....and the Observers are his priests.
Am i crazy? XD

[jade86]

My theory is that their stake, is that they are peters decendants, or anscenstors, or somehow genetically related to humanity, in our current form. Evolution is a big them, in the show, as are genes, and the bishop family line seems to be somehow connected to peters specialness too.

I see the Observers more like Peter's ancenstors. If they traveled into time is because probably they have very old origins. I think..:confused0006:

[(9)November]

Empty ur talking about the schordingers theory. put a cat in a box completely sealed. while u can not see the cat the cat therefore does not exist in the box until u open the box and observe it. the wave funtion has to collapse which can only happen upon observation.

if a tree falls in the forrest and no one was there to observe it, does it really exist. srry just alittle science humor:observer:

i think u might be right on that but i just cant see jj limiting us to two universes when having more is just too easy. plus based on the multiverse theory there has to be more universes then just 2.:observer:

[Montecito]

put a cat in a box completely sealed. while u can not see the cat the cat therefore does not exist in the box until u open the box

if we put a cat in a box, the cat exists even if we open the box to observe it even if we don't..

[Obyron]

Empty ur talking about the schordingers theory. put a cat in a box completely sealed. while u can not see the cat the cat therefore does not exist in the box until u open the box and observe it. the wave funtion has to collapse which can only happen upon observation.

Somewhere, in a box in the ground, Schrodinger may or may not be crying. ;)

It has nothing to do with the cat not existing because you can't see it. I will elaborate, because understanding this concept seems to have significant bearing on understanding Fringe. The thought experiment goes like this:

Put a cat in a hermetically-sealed box along with a vial of hydrocyanic acid. Imagine a radioactive element with a very stable rate of decay and a half-life of around an hour. Each hour there is a fifty-fifty chance an atom of the element will decay. Set up a geiger counter such that, when the element decays, the geiger counter will "tick" and trigger a hammer mechanism that will shatter the vial of hydrocyanic acid, which will produce hydrogen cyanide on contact with the moisture in the air, and kill the cat.

Because there is a fifty-fifty chance every hour that the radioactive decay will take place, you cannot know with absolute certainty when it has taken place. It could happen after an hour, or, because of the vagaries of random numbers, it might not happen for weeks. You cannot know if the cat is alive or dead without opening the box. Thus: is the cat actually dead before you open the box and observe it being dead?

Any right-thinking person will say, "the cat is either dead or it's not dead. If the vial has broken, of course it's dead before you open the box," but that's not the point. It's a metaphor for a problem in quantum mechanics, and not related to literal cats. Quantum systems exist in a series of "superpositions" that encompass all possible states of the system-- it could be A or B or C or D or Q. You can express the system mathematically as a waveform that oscillates through all of the possible outcomes. So when does that system settle down to one outcome or another? There are two main interpretations of this, and this is where we get to Observers.

The Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics says that the quantum system settles into its final position when an observation takes place. This is the quantum equivalent of opening the box to see if the cat is dead or not. In scientific terms, it's called collapsing the waveform, or wave function collapse. The problem is in defining when the observation takes places and what exactly constitutes observation (and this is the paradox that Schrodinger was trying to point out with his thought experiment). Does the cat constitute an observer? Is the initial observation you opening the box, or is it the geiger counter detecting the decayed element (thus causing the system to collapse into the "dead cat" state).

There is an alternate interpretation called the Many-Worlds interpretation. In MWI there is still observation, but the waveform never collapses. Instead there is a separate universe where every possible superposition of the quantum system happens. At T0 there is one universe with a cat in a Schrodinger box. At T+1 hour there are now two universes. In one the cat is still alive in the box. In the second the cat is dead in the box. But in the overall system (the multiverse) the quantum waveform is still going strong. At + 2 you add a new universe-- the "Cat Dies At T+2" universe, and there is still the initial universe where the cat is alive.

Taken to its logical conclusion, there is an alternate universe where the cat essentially never dies. It will die of old age (or starvation) in the box before an atom of our theoretical element decays, triggering the kill mechanism. This can be referred to as Quantum Immortality. One proposed thought experiment that would support Many Worlds Interpretation is called the Quantum Suicide experiment. You basically put yourself in a Schrodinger box, and theoretically there would be an alternate universe where you continuously don't die, and that quantum copy of yourself would realize that he is perhaps just one very lucky copy of the original person who went into the box, that MWI may be correct, and that he should get the hell out of the box before his luck runs out.

The Copenhagen Interpretation has been the mainstream interpretation of quantum mechanics, but the MWI also has a lot of adherents, and, as crazy as it sounds, is broadly accepted as a mainstream scientific theory.

So in Fringe we are clearly using the Many-Worlds Interpretation, which makes you wonder about the nature of the Observers. In MWI the (lower case) observer is bound up with the result. When you open the box and see a live cat, you become quantum entangled with the current state of the cat, and the two states are said to be decoherent-- there is no transfer of information between the states. You don't intrinsically know that there is another state somewhere with a quantum copy of you who is looking at a dead cat, and vice versa (hence the Quantum Suicide thought experiment).

Which seems to make us question the nature of the (upper case) Observers. Are they time travelers? Are they transdimensional, which in some ways seems harder? Are they copied by virtue of being entangled with the events they observe? Is the Observer we see in the AU one of "our" Observers who crossed over, or is it a quantum copy? If the Observers exist "outside the waveform," meaning they are able to take themselves out of our quantum system, how do they do that? Is there something special about it, or is it just advanced technology? Why do they only seem to Observe certain events and not others?

The whole thing really raises a ton of questions and gives us no answers, but I figure in a thread about Observers' motives it fits to at least have an understanding of why the Observers are significant to begin with, and it's always fun to introduce new people to the brain ache that is quantum mechanics.

[Za Lords Lt.]

i think u might be right on that but i just cant see jj limiting us to two universes when having more is just too easy. plus based on the multiverse theory there has to be more universes then just 2.:observer:

They've never said that there aren't more than two universes out there, but they have said that we'll only be dealing with the two universes we already know. It's in an interview somewhere, I'm sure.


EDIT: WOW, Obyron, you know your stuff!




Which seems to make us question the nature of the (upper case) Observers. Are they time travelers? Are they transdimensional, which in some ways seems harder? Are they copied by virtue of being entangled with the events they observe? Is the Observer we see in the AU one of "our" Observers who crossed over, or is it a quantum copy? If the Observers exist "outside the waveform," meaning they are able to take themselves out of our quantum system, how do they do that? Is there something special about it, or is it just advanced technology? Why do they only seem to Observe certain events and not others?



I have an idea about this, actually. I'm not really smart enough to understand quantum mechanics past the metaphor stage, but I did hear an interesting metaphor regarding time. This scientist guy (I dunno who, it was a video with a whole bunch of scientists) was saying that time could be represented as a stirred up cup of coffee. Like when you make the whirlpool with your spoon. It goes faster in the middle and slower on the outside (or vice versa). Then if you drop a bean into the coffee- thinking of the bean as a lower case observer- it would only be aware of however much coffee is directly around it. But you, as an upper case Observer, are aware of the whole shebang even if you are not yourself traveling at all. Maybe the Observers have their own, "bigger" time stream from which they are able to Observe our little cup of coffee.

None of that probably makes any sense, but I thought I'd throw it out there, anyway. :)

[parker]

The the Observer is the barista at Starbucks? Sorry I could not resist. :P I actually really like your explanation. It makes a lot of sense in relation to our bald photobombing friends.

[Za Lords Lt.]

The the Observer is the barista at Starbucks? Sorry I could not resist. :P I actually really like your explanation. It makes a lot of sense in relation to our bald photobombing friends.

:lolol:

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

I just re-watched "August" and I just want to throw some stuff out there.

So what if the Observers are from the future and are traveling backwards to gain a sense of where they came from, their roots, to observe the 'First People'. Because isn't that what quantum physics is, trying to find the "God Particle", the particle where life came from? What if Peter, Olivia, and maybe even the girl Christine from August are among the first 'awakened humans'?

I felt there was a direct correlation made between The Observer dodging the bullets when he kidnapped Christine and the bullet Peter barely dodged while checking out the Observer's apartment. So they have the same skills, albeit in Peter, not as developed.

Also, the energy gun. When August gave Peter the gun, their hands touched and it looked like they were having a conversation with each other in their minds. What was said?? Did August tell him how to use the gun since by his look it seemed he recognized who he was handing it to???

Also this brings up my observation from Over There Pt 1. It seems like Olivia awakened Ella with her mind, maybe that's their little secret together, why they are so close, is that they share an inherent ability.

So that brings me to my last thought, is Ella going to be the one to get Peter back to the other side to save Olivia?!?!!!!!??!?!?!?

[Olibrius]

I just re-watched "August" and I just want to throw some stuff out there.

So what if the Observers are from the future and are traveling backwards to gain a sense of where they came from, their roots, to observe the 'First People'.

Interesting !

We are the 'First People' and Observers are from the futur...
Maybe Observers are the result of a mondial blight.
They seek to understand in the past why they became what they are.

We can draw a parallel with the child of the cellar and "future" humans living in the blight...
The child in the cellar, deprived of air, food ... Which shows the same talent as the Observers...


This is a crazy theory, I know :haha:

[jade86]

So what if the Observers are from the future and are traveling backwards to gain a sense of where they came from, their roots, to observe the 'First People'. Because isn't that what quantum physics is, trying to find the "God Particle", the particle where life came from? What if Peter, Olivia, and maybe even the girl Christine from August are among the first 'awakened humans'?


I don't know if the Observers come from the future. It's possible, but i'd say they SEE the future ;)



I felt there was a direct correlation made between The Observer dodging the bullets when he kidnapped Christine and the bullet Peter barely dodged while checking out the Observer's apartment. So they have the same skills, albeit in Peter, not as developed.

Also, the energy gun. When August gave Peter the gun, their hands touched and it looked like they were having a conversation with each other in their minds. What was said?? Did August tell him how to use the gun since by his look it seemed he recognized who he was handing it to???


You know....I loved "August" episode, because all Peter's stuff you mentioned proves that he is one of them (the observers)!



Also this brings up my observation from Over There Pt 1. It seems like Olivia awakened Ella with her mind, maybe that's their little secret together, why they are so close, is that they share an inherent ability.

So that brings me to my last thought, is Ella going to be the one to get Peter back to the other side to save Olivia?!?!!!!!??!?!?!?

I don't know what to think about Ella, but would be cool if she helped Peter to come back to the other side! :shiny:

[Obyron]

Maybe the Observers have their own, "bigger" time stream from which they are able to Observe our little cup of coffee. Yeah, this is kind of the assumption I've been working with, like maybe the Observers are able to observe time as if it were a spatial dimension, either physically, or with those neat gadgets they always have. I had a fanfic idea that relies around this and uses time travel...

We've been shown that when time travel in Fringe happens, the universe sort of repairs itself. That is, if you walk up to me and slap the absolute snot out of me because you think I'm a know-it-all windbag (someone out there is nodding wildly right now), and then travel back in time 30 seconds, I don't remember anything, and it's like it never happened.

If the Observers can observe time, or potentially the state of the quantum system, as if it were a physical thing, I have to like the idea that they're going around collapsing the waveform, trying to keep things from fragmenting too much. Maybe the multiverse has a small hard drive, and all these redundant universes are taking up too much space. ;)

Edited to fix formatting. For some reason my Firefox install went nuts and I had to reinstall.

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

I don't know what to think about Ella, but would be cool if she helped Peter to come back to the other side! :shiny:

I think it could be an interesting development, because how ARE they going to get back to the other side?!?!? No Olivia, no doorstop, no Bell... Peter probably can do it, but does he know how? And would Ella have to be treated with Cortexiphan??? Or does she have an innate ability? I don't think I'd want to subject her to cortexiphan, but anything is possible... does the means justify the ends?

[Za Lords Lt.]

I think it could be an interesting development, because how ARE they going to get back to the other side?!?!? No Olivia, no doorstop, no Bell... Peter probably can do it, but does he know how? And would Ella have to be treated with Cortexiphan??? Or does she have an innate ability? I don't think I'd want to subject her to cortexiphan, but anything is possible... does the means justify the ends?

Well, Walter managed it without Olivia. They'll probably rebuild the original machine from "Peter" and use it or something. I'm sure that between Peter and Walter they could do it.

[parker]

Christine Holis, the girl August saved was not special to anyone but August, he saved her because he watched her parents die in a bridge collapse when she was a child. He had watched her for a while while growing up.

I do believe Ella will sense that Bolivia is not Olivia, because children are simply more perceptive then Adults.

As for Peter and the Observers, I don't believe Peter is an observer, simply like Olivia someone very integral to the pattern and the series of events important to the Observers.

I don't believe observers can time travel, they can simply exist in a conscious awareness of everything they have witness. They would not have sent someone to go and kill Christine Holis if they could have gone back in time they would have simply prevented August from doing what he did. Calling someone to kill her, is getting involved abet indirectly.

I could compare the observers to a stage director in a play. They know the lines and the parts, they know the scenes and the acts. All the parts that are supposed to happen but they aren't on the stage themselves. They feed the actors their lines if need be.

I kind of think that walternate might have given peter cortexiphan as a small child on the other side. Corti kids seems to heighten each others abilities when nearby. Think in ability, Peter was near by. Just a thought.

[Montecito]

Christine Holis, the girl August saved was not special to anyone but August

August made her special. She is the reason one of them died. That makes that girl important.

[parker]

August made her special. She is the reason one of them died. That makes that girl important.

Yes Montecito you are correct, august made her special, but she is not pattern related or a Corti kid. Which is the special I was talking about.

[Montecito]

she is not pattern related or a Corti kid. Which is the special I was talking about.

oh..ok sorry :P

[parker]

The work "special" gets thrown around here a lot. We made need to develop a foot note system or designations to better clarify its meaning. ;-)

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

Well, Walter managed it without Olivia. They'll probably rebuild the original machine from "Peter" and use it or something. I'm sure that between Peter and Walter they could do it.

That could be an interesting 3rd season story, Walter and Peter dredging Reiden Lake to get the old device back if Walter can't remember how to rebuild it. But in KGC, Bell did say Walter could build one again...

And the Observer also told something to Christine but we were never privy to what that was. So maybe that is what also made her 'special'??

[jade86]

I think it could be an interesting development, because how ARE they going to get back to the other side?!?!? No Olivia, no doorstop, no Bell... Peter probably can do it, but does he know how? And would Ella have to be treated with Cortexiphan??? Or does she have an innate ability? I don't think I'd want to subject her to cortexiphan, but anything is possible... does the means justify the ends?

I don't think Ella was tested with cortexiphan :confused0006:
About the connection between the Observers and Peter, i forgot to say that as August was able to start the car with the energy from his finger, Peter always showed to give life to all kinds of technologies :happy15:

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

I don't think Ella was tested with cortexiphan :confused0006:


I'm not saying she was treated with Cortexiphan, but if she has an ability like Olivia, it could cross Walter's mind to give her cortexiphan to get Olivia back. It would be a horrible thing to do, maybe it could show how much he's changed... or not...

[parker]

I don't think Olivia had the ability before Cortexiphan. The ability is what developed it. I also would think that Peter would prevent that fromhappening. both Peter and Olivia dislike being Walter's lab rats as kids.

[parker]

I think Peter and Walter will try to get Olivia home, but I think in this case, Olivia is going to have to do it herself. Her abilities have been activated by Jones in "Ability." We know they are fear induced from "Jacksonville". I think those were Easter eggs that she is inevitably responsible for helping herself. Olivia has that type of drive. Also JJ tends to put forth strong female charaters. alias is a point here. I don't think its going to be Peter in navy pea coat coming to the rescue, ( to borrow my dA friends phrase.)

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

Do we even know if the Observers are 'good' or 'bad'? I know they are supposedly neutral, but obviously they aren't!! What if the they are a dark/evil force (as they are portrayed in Brown Betty), but the rogue ones (august and september?) are actually the good guys?

and is the beacon looking for Peter as portrayed in Brown Betty? Could Walternate be the source/creator of the Beacon?

[The_war_is_already_on]

Lots of stimulating thoughts here. Yes, I like this, back from the future to observe origins thing. Very scientific, or exploratory. The "from the future" thing is a good fit IMO, and I like the ideas about this interpretation of the "first people" clue.

Good stuff.

Also, the "outside of our universes" idea, also makes alot of sense. They cant be shot, seem to evade physical laws. Its possible its some kind of "ghost" they are projecting from somewhere else, rather than actually them??

....

As for the copenhagen, and MWI stuff. Well, I actually hate copenhagen, i think their interpretation is somewhat backward here - That things happen randomly when we observe them, and virtual particles appear and dissappear. Whats to say, normal cause and effect, on some non-visible level, isn't still occuring. MWI is better here, but still vague.

I personally like the idea, that the electron feild isnt "randomized" into a position and such, but in fact caused, perhaps in someway related to observation - IE there is no random.

But maybe thats just me. I like a comprehesible universe, even if it involves hidden dimensions, or other weird quirks.

I also dont think observers are there to collapse the waveform......thats just not terribly satisfying as a plot, unless they stretch it sci-fi wise to make it more accessible and actiony.

As for MWI, its worth noting, that apart from the most accepted version, there are in fact quite a few variations on this theory, not all of which resolve the waveform collapse in the same way...

....

And I agree, the observers are not neutral, as I said earlier their actions make it clear they have alot of stakes in things, just that its hard to figure what they actually want exactly......Im guessing the rogue, is a rogue observer, which shows their motives and goals, are far from neutral. I really still want to know what that probe is!


Olivia is going to have to do it herself. Her abilities have been activated by Jones in "Ability." We know they are fear induced from "Jacksonville". I think those were Easter eggs that she is inevitably responsible for helping herself. Olivia has that type of drive. Also JJ tends to put forth strong female charaters.Im not sure where that fits into this thread, as I havent read it all, but I totally agree here. The allusion, was quite obvious at the end of part 2, to jacksonville. Hey, you should read my fic!

"You found a way to protect yourself, you turned fear into anger"!

[parker]

I think the observers are simply supposed to keep a schedule. Like a stage director, make sure things happen when they are supposed, by who.

As one of fringe blogs pointed out
walter says - All the world’s a stage.

the next three lines are

And all the men and women merely players;They have their exits and their entrances,And one man in his time plays many parts,This sort of supports that. The observers dont have a part to play simply to watch it happen.

[parker]

Observers may have a job to maintain the universe, to ensure it carries on, not simply observe. If one universe seeks to destroy another universe, that would some how throw things out of balance, since they exist in the same space. (ie how Walters other world window works.) It could also be why they show up to pattern events since that would be relevant to things on the other side. ( technology or death, changes things, one person would exist on one side but not the other)

Going back to the stage director's analogy, a stage direct knows the script, which would explain how the observer would know what peter or olivia or anyone would say. They know the story and simply ensure it plays out to the script.

[Za Lords Lt.]

^ I like your stage director analogy, parker, especially with Walter quoting Shakey in Over There part 1.

I'm still not sure that the Observers are time travelers. It's possible, of course, but it just doesn't seem to fit. If they are just humans from the future, why can't they taste? And hasn't it been strongly suggested that they actually exist in another dimension, and that we're only aware of a small fraction of their being? Like the tip of an iceberg?

[parker]

I think they simply maintain the general existence, key events to keep a universe on track. If they were time travelers, the could more actively fix problems. Like with the August issue.

Za lords: like you said with the coffee analogy, they could observe many cups at once. We assume they are always in our universe, but they could jump around, making different show times in different universes.

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

We assume they are always in our universe, but they could jump around, making different show times in different universes.

Hmm, that's pretty interesting that you say something like that, it reminds me of when they are seen coming out of Back to the Future in the alt-verse. It's like they are sampling the cultures of both universes. And the events they observe are kind of like their version of going to the movies: they have to get to it at a certain time, enjoy it with some popcorn (they are always seen eating which is an interesting parallel with Walter's food obsession) and they are just there to enjoy the event and experience it.

[Za Lords Lt.]

I want to see the Observers' reactions to Doctor Who. Or 2001: A Space Odyssey.

[jade86]

Yesterday i was talking about possible Observers's origins with my friend (and fringe addicted too :D), analysing two episodes of the first season. In "the arrival", for example, the beacon appears from earthly.....and the baby observer in "inner child" was found more or less in the subsoil in the dark.
Walter said the young observer's look was caused by his long permanence in the dark, without light and food. Maybe the Observers in general belonged to an ancient civilization, whose town has been buried, and only few of them were able to emerge.
Thinking about that, i have done a search this morning about first people/native/tribal populations that had something to do with submerged towns and at a certain point i found Atlantis's story. There are some interesting things, with possible allusions to Fringe, that i would share with you.


DNA MANIPULATION
J. Ducatillon affirms that people from Atlantide has suffered a DNA manipulation. This manipulation has happened because these people was in certain sense seduced by an alien people. These aliens told the Atlantideis that if they had accepted this manipulation there would have been some improvements in their life. The same thing is happening today, near of us. We accept that searches are effected on the embryos, on the genetics and on the cells because is told that this will allow us to recover difficult illnesses to take care of. In reality it can also happen very serious things. The matter is the same. The same thing is happening. To that point a kind of computerized virus was inserted in the body of the Atlantideis and this has stopped their energies. Our energies have stopped, as the right side of our brain doesn't easily communicate with the left side. This alien race had deceived us to the purpose of regress and to manipulate us easily.
(Walter said that people had lost their abilities because of the aliens....They could be the Observers, in this case)


MISTERIOUS PLACES
Some researchers have presupposed that the survivors of Atlantide have tried to get acclimatized in the actual age. This hypothesis would explain the birth of agriculture in more geographical zones and it would expound the construction of very similar monuments among theirs (for example the maya pyramids and those Egyptians) that are indeed mysterious works. The same researcher Peter Kolosimo has observed the amazing affinities between the Mexican pyramids and Cheope's. The constructions of Easter Island are a mystery, too. These mysterious works can be explained if we consider that they can come from the atlantidea civilization but someone has added that they have been built through teachings received by alien civilization. In a lot of representations of the so-called "primitive men", in fact, there are images of spatial ships, and in the ancient Indian texts it speaks of divine and bright beings gone down by flying ships. (In the episode "August", Brandon talked about the presence of some Observers's symbols on some monuments. In general, there can be also references to the mysterious nature of the cylinder and the ancient machine that works only with Peter's DNA)

What do you think about? Some points are very interesting! :shiny:
Look at Agarthi story, too. There are a lot of possible references to Nazi, Observer's origins and Peter!

[The_war_is_already_on]

^ Now we are on the same page :)

You see hitler was a very serious occultist, influenced by theosophy and the likes. Those mystery religions valued the ancient atlantean DNA, their bloodline, and beleived in an evolution of a greater kind of human being - that humans had seven ages of being, and the last was to be the greatest of all. You might find the theosophy wiki page interesting, if you want to get an insight into why the nazi's were obsessed with genetic purity...

It has been said by conspiracy theorists, that the ruling elite classes that rule our world, have been preserving their bloodline since the fall of atlantis - (As followers of the religion of "destructive" forces and domination, the so called left-hand path of religion, they were also instrumental in its destruction - see the myth about the fall of atlantis)

So we have our altantis, nazi tie in, and a possible explaination as to how peter got his dna... (That would be an amazing reveal)

Altantis is one of the prototypical alt-history golden civilisations, and would fit fantastically with these arcs.....

If they found some ancient tech (like doomsday, and time machine in comics), they would be even more driven to purify the bloodline.....

And, if they did this, could be the first truely cool main arc reference to alt-history ever on TV.

Although, i supect if they do, it will be a with a large brush of imagination...

As an avid follower of all things "crazy theory", I would almost explode if they brought some of this stuff in. Plus the alt-history tech would be very very cool to see walter to get to play with!!! (I guess maybe a bit like the beacon in arrival)

[Obyron]

Hitler wasn't an occultist. Himmler was the occultist. He's the one who founded the Ahnenerbe and sent them out looking for artifacts. A lot of the crazy out-there stuff was the Thule Society though, who weren't affiliated with the government. Hitler ridicules occultism and spiritualism in Mein Kampf. He was mainly interested in it as another justification for Aryan superiority.

The single best primary source we have from the Nazi era, Albert Speer (who was the closest thing Hitler had to a friend, and who was Armaments Minister during the tail end of the war) wrote a fantastic memoir called Inside the Third Reich, and he details Hitler's utter disdain for spiritualism in general and religion in particular. There's one part where he recalls a conversation where Hitler openly bemoaned the fact that Germany was predominantly a Protestant country, and how he wished they were Muslim, because he felt it would make people easier to manipulate.

To get a picture of Germany during the war years, and an idea of what Hitler was actually like as a person, Speer's memoir is just an amazing (and horrifying) read. His bias is pretty clear (not wanting to be executed at Nuremberg) and he glosses over things like the atrocities and the Holocaust, but it's the best primary source we have.

[The_war_is_already_on]

^ Okay sure, that's accurate to what we know. And probably the most easier to accept account. Still, the nazi's as a group, were highly driven by the occult stuff.

However one should be aware that with secret societies, and occult groups, often their public account is delibrately inaccurate - comes with being secret. Even public organisations like the masons manage to skew public accounts and keep central secrets about their practices and beleifs.....(At least half of american presidents, and probably up to most, have been masons, and yet, no one seems to notice this....)

Nazis are such a great fringe science tie in (in some ways better than the russians, or americans like tesla), becuase of how creepy it all was. Yes they experimented with UFOs and the paranormal like the other goverments, but they also did things like mind control well before the american MK-Ultra project. And the occult thing makes great novel mythology/mystery too..

A great example of SS secrecy is Crowley. Crowley went againt the secret societies and published a whole bunch of information regarded as secret - but it is all hidden in six layers of child sacrifice, drug taking, complete contradiction and mystical allegory.......The average person who reads his books, doesnt have a clue what crowley is espousing...

Even then, he was made an enemy of the SS's for his "reveal".

As I understood it, the Thule society, is a follow on from theosophy...(Which posits the spiritual/genetic evolution of seven ages).

Anyway, real world mythology aside, what do you think of a nazi tie in here Obyron?


Ohh, ooh, while we are still on this alt-history, first people things, let me post these!!!!

This is a "model plane" from the ancient egyptian's (note similar things have been found in some other old cultures....what is amazing to note, is they also found one in egypt with a delta wing configuration - like a modern jet, which is unlike birds in nature...does anyone have this pic?!!):

http://www.catchpenny.org/images/bird1.gif

Here are what appear to be some UFO, blimps, planes and helicopters!:

http://www.catchpenny.org/images/abydos2.gif

Wish I could find the delta wing, but that above panel is pretty damn cool in itself..

[jade86]

I liked Agharti's story.
An underground city lived by inhabitants capable of many unheard things with the power of mind and able to use the energy that umans had forgotten. It was an energy that could be reawaken.
This also made me think the cortexi-kids, with their gifts reawakened thanks to cortexiphan that could be the product of Peter's DNA, the unique descendant of this powerful ancient civilization. Not to mention the nazi's references!



If they found some ancient tech (like doomsday, and time machine in comics), they would be even more driven to purify the bloodline.....


I agree! They could have found also the prophecy at this time. The fact that Walternate's father was a nazi could explain how walternate came into possession of the parchment!

All these similarities between Agharti/Atlantis story and Fringe really shocked me! :shiny:

[Quill]

My theory today? The Observers were created, like the shape-shifters. I have an idea as to who did it, but it's a pretty far off theory (Peter, in the future) which most likely has absolutely no basis in reality. :D


They've never said that there aren't more than two universes out there, but they have said that we'll only be dealing with the two universes we already know. It's in an interview somewhere, I'm sure.
They also said Nina was telling the truth about her arm in season one.

[Quill]

Whoa. Double post. Sorry.

[Montecito]

Hitler wasn't an occultist.

i have read that Hitler was a member of Thule_Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society)and also had the Spear_of_destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_destiny)

[The_war_is_already_on]

also had the Spear_of_destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_destiny)Okay, lets all use our sci-fi imaginations. What kind of first-people/observer/weird tech could that be? Was jesus an observer, first-person, lol ;P? They are immune to bullets, maybe the spear can kill them!

Though seriously that would be kick ass myth arc (occult nazi's, bloodlines from atlantis, thule/theosophy - seriously read up on theosophy, its foundational to modern esotericism!), and tie in perfectly to everything....But, also would require some subtley/restraint IMO....(Cloverfeild versus Godzilla kinda thing)

Beleive it or not, occultism, sacred geometry, and paranormal actually ties 100% percent into russian torsion physics, which is quite experimentally demonstrated - which could actually make "fantasy" arcs quite "sci-fi".

[Obyron]

Even public organisations like the masons manage to skew public accounts and keep central secrets about their practices and beleifs.....(At least half of american presidents, and probably up to most, have been masons, and yet, no one seems to notice this....)

Heh, as a Freemason (Blue Lodge, York Rite, and Shriners), I'm going to have to beg to differ with you on that one. :) But like all conspiracy theorists you'd likely either say I'm part of the cover-up, or just that I'm low in the organization and have had the wool pulled over my eyes. Trust me when I say though that most Freemasons can't agree on whether they want ham or chicken salad sandwiches as a snack at the next meeting, much less put together a cohesive plan for world domination. I've known a couple of Grand Masters of state Grand Lodges when I still lived in the US, and believe me that they're no better than the rank and file. :D

And only 14 presidents have been Freemasons (which I think is impressive enough without needing to claim half). The last one was Gerald Ford. Bill Clinton was a DeMolay when he was younger, but he never joined the Blue Lodge.



Nazis are such a great fringe science tie in (in some ways better than the russians, or americans like tesla), becuase of how creepy it all was. Yes they experimented with UFOs and the paranormal like the other goverments, but they also did things like mind control well before the american MK-Ultra project. And the occult thing makes great novel mythology/mystery too..
No argument here. The nazis were legitimately up to some weird stuff, but it's just plain inaccurate to say that Hitler was an occultist. Kind of like the number of Freemason presidents, the extent of occultism in the Nazi government was a significant enough thing without having to resort to claims that Hitler himself wore robes and barked at the moon. Himmler was the head lunatic in that regard.



A great example of SS secrecy is Crowley. Crowley went againt the secret societies and published a whole bunch of information regarded as secret - but it is all hidden in six layers of child sacrifice, drug taking, complete contradiction and mystical allegory.......The average person who reads his books, doesnt have a clue what crowley is espousing...
I've never read anything that suggested Crowley had anything to do with the SS. In fact there's a theory that he was a spy for British Intelligence. I'll agree with you though, that I've read some Crowley, and it was pretty incomprehensible. ;)



Anyway, real world mythology aside, what do you think of a nazi tie in here Obyron?
I posted one of my theories on the Fringe/Nazi connection in my First People? (http://www.fringe-forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180116&postcount=42) thread over on T&S (the link is just to the relevant post). It's hard to know whether or not I actually believe any of it will happen, because we don't know remotely enough to know if there's even going to be a Nazi tie-in beyond what we found out in The Bishop Revival.


Edited:


i have read that Hitler was a member of Thule_Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society)and also had the Spear_of_destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_destiny)

I've read a lot of things I didn't believe from unreliable sources, sure. I doubt Hitler was a member of the Thule Society. There's a section in the wikipedia article you link to where they discuss that they claimed Hitler as a member, but that there is ample evidence that he never attended any meetings. It also references a speech he gave at Nuremberg in September of 1938, which I've looked up (http://www.hitler.org/speeches/09-06-38.html). He says: "We will not allow mystically-minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else - in any case, something which has nothing to do with us."

The Reich took something purported to be the Spear of Destiny from Austria after the Anschluss, but it's necessary to understand that there are a LOT of purported holy relics out there that are bollocks. If you added up all the supposed "finger bones of St. Peter" and "phalanges of St. Pompodopolous" out there in reliquaries, and do some basic math, you'd expect the average saint to have eight hands with twelve fingers each, and something like five feet, each with nine toes. For one thing, if this was truly the Spear of Destiny, and it truly has occult powers, why did the Austro-Hungarian Empire lose World War I and the Hapsburg Dynasty collapse when they had the thing in their possession nonstop from 1796 to 1938? Maybe if Franz Ferdinand had had the sense to pack the thing in his car with him... ;)

So yeah, I don't put much stock in the magic pointy stick. :)

[Montecito]

Heh, as a Freemason (Blue Lodge, York Rite, and Shriners),

i have heard that in the 33rd degree masons worship Satan..

maybe you should leave masonry..:what:

[Mutsie]

...Wow... some heavy stuff is going on here.... :confused0006:

Makes me think about this: We do know that the Nazi's did experiment a lot and not only with techno-thingies... [they used humans too, sadly enough :(] ... Perhaps that what they mean with First People -> the first people who got experimented with. Perhaps it is way mad thinking of me... Still it makes me wonder.

It can be that the Observers observing us {Earth I and II} simply to see how we re-act on "experiments" caused by.... {yep ?}...

Again: just a thought....

:observer::tiphat:

[Obyron]

i have heard that in the 33rd degree masons worship Satan..

maybe you should leave masonry..:what:

I'm not even going to dignify that by denying it. ;)

[Montecito]

I'm not even going to dignify that by denying it. ;)

if you are not in the 33rd rank you have no idea what those guys worship..
so you can't really deny it because you don't know..

[Obyron]

By the same logic, you can't claim to know what they worship, because you don't know. :) Saying it has to be true because I can't disprove it is an Appeal to Ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ignorance). Probably a good time to take this off the thread, since it's blatantly derailing at this point. :)

[Montecito]

Edit:

[Obyron]

Yeah, there's no point in even discussing this. :) I'm going to say you're wrong, you're going to say I've been brainwashed by demons, and I'm going to roll my eyes and say something stupid, and then we'll both end up getting banned. :) Let's agree to disagree and drop it, unless you expect this to come up in an episode of Fringe.

[Montecito]

Yeah, there's no point in even discussing this. :) I'm going to say you're wrong, you're going to say I've been brainwashed by demons, and I'm going to roll my eyes and say something stupid, and then we'll both end up getting banned. :) Let's agree to disagree and drop it, unless you expect this to come up in an episode of Fringe.

i deleted my post not because i don't want to fight..(i don't by the way:P)

but because i couldn't even look at that creature and i don't want to feature it in one of my posts.... it was so creepy..:what:

[jade86]

Always about the inhabitants of Agharti, i have found other possible (and shocking!) references to the observers, Peter, the prophecy and Nazis...I'll post some parts from what i found.

"They never intervene to change the things, even if that did comfort to their interests, and the only exceptions they do them to protect the chronological, historical and evolutionary fabric from others and well heavier intrusions.
For example, the last time that they broke their tendency not to intervene was during World War II, when a group of a few northern aliens (a kind of fifth column of ex Atlantidei which have never accepted the loss of the domain on the planet) contacted Hitler giving him helps and precise orders, up to deliver him some flying disks to be replied with retro-engineering, in order to have a northern planet to be governed through their puppet. The worst thing was that the Nazis used the holy emblem to Shamballa/Agharta: swastika.
This emblem represents from always the "King of the World" who lives in the subsoil, symbol of positiveness and radiant energy."

"The one who commits is punished by his same conscience, which would unappeasably put him in front of its responsibilities. These populations have reached a sky-high degree of civilization; the science development has touched sky-high tops, but the same one would be used with extreme wisdom, and then free of the danger, as happened in our civilization with the use of the atomic bomb, that it can become tool of death and destruction"

"The "vril" would be a very powerful psycho-physical energy, unknown to terrestrial. Some legends tell that in Agharti between the various races there was one with a very light skin. They probably were descendants of the lost continent of Atlantis. They would have in possession of big powers, included one regarded the "vril". They would have the possibility of using the sky-high extraterrestrial technology granted them by the King of the World. For which they would be able to use the telepathy, move quickly and sometimes go out from the bowels of the earth to perform missions whose purpose still remains us unknown. An interesting thing has to do with the various close meetings with the aliens. Some people have noticed the detail of the very white skin of the so-called extraterrestrials and that would be very plausible seeing that live to remarkable depths under the earth crust wouldn't permit to be exposed to the light of sunbeams".

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

Speaking of Atlantis, JJ Abrams and Fringe, just ran across this on Twitter. How interesting considering the turn of this topic!

http://www.bobmayer.org/blog/?p=293

The #Lost bookshelf


Years ago a writer in USA Today posed an interesting question leading up to the second season finale of LOST: “If I had fifteen minutes to look at the books on JJ Abrams bookshelf, I could probably predict the next couple of seasons of LOST.”

In 1999 the first book in the Atlantis (http://whodareswinspublishing.com/sifi-channel/atlantis-series/) series was published. Note the following:

1. The first episode and premise of LOST features a plane crash in a remote jungle area. The first Atlantis book in the series features a plane crash in a remote jungle area. Both planes lose radio contact before crashing. The crashes are such that no one should have survived, yet most on board do. Both crashes result in the survivors getting only enough information about their location to realize they’re all ‘lost’. When some of the survivors enter the plane’s cockpit, they find the top of it ripped open. As they check it, the pilot is immediately pulled from the torn cockpit and killed by an unknown force. The sound of something large moving outside is heard and the survivors flee the cockpit. (The motif of something large and unseen moving through the jungle re-occurs in Lost and in the books).

2. In the second season finale it’s discovered that the island appears to be part of some strange system of planet-wide powerful electromagnetic anomalies. In the book series the gates are part of a system of planet-wide powerful electromagnetic anomalies.

3. Both feature a radio message replaying a cryptic message that in both cases have no apparent power source. The message is thirty years old in the books and sixteen years old in the series.

(blah blah blah, edited out a bunch of other stuff, click the link to read more...)

[jade86]

Wowwww! Then Fringe could really have ties to Atlantis or Agharta :confused0066:
Nazi's were also interested to both these two ancient cities!

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

this is all pretty awesome stuff! Gonna go read more, now (that is after I get off work...)

[The_war_is_already_on]

Occult organisations like the golden dawn, and the masons have tried to preserve their traditions from the deep deep past - yes, most certainly because of the inquisition and such they are secret, but from even before then, as open societies they attempted to draw back to some kind of symbolic/magickal/spiritual purity from the far past. The symbols, rituals etc are like a gem to protect.

A centre point of such traditions is the Ancient Egypt & Asia, which are said to have been influenced by the survivors of Atlantis. (According to myth of course, but the two most cited survivor stories centre in these two places)

But then, in some ways it almost impossible to avoid being influenced by egyptian spiritual ideas as one of the core influences of culture in both the east and west. A great example is christianity, all of the figures in the new testament have direct parrallels with egyptian myth - and things like the cross (anhk), and communion, and baptism, are all egyptian symbols and rituals.......In fact there was a historical figure in egypt long before any other monotheism who taught there was one true god........(No offence intended to christians, its merely an example among many of the range of egyptian influences) - The facing of churchs, and the altar and its sacred objects, in fact the whole format of a church service, is based on the symbollogy and meanings of egyptian magick. The parallel is so close, if you are really watching, you will see that a wiccan magick ritual, and a church service (both based on egyptian spiritual practices), are very much the same, with different metaphysics/gods..

Of course, if you tied in some secret occult bloodline going right back to then, it makes a good story, even if it is far fetched, and it has many parrallels in modern myth. (As well as fitting in nice with the Nazi/Thule thing) - Such as illumaniti. Im not claiming this particular aspect true, only good story material!

Blatavasky (sp?), was the _first_ central modern occult revivalist. She created theosophy during that earlier recent period where paranormal, alchemical and other interests became the central fancy again for the wealthy. Its heavily centred around the genetic/spiritual evolution of man through seven ages....(the wiki summerizes theosophy nicely)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy

Its really a hodge podge of random bits world wide, and is one of the primary influenced for the modern new age movement.

The Thule society (1900's) was directly influenced by Blakavaskys writing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_society

They took what she said quite literally, and seriously, and went about trying to create the final and most glorious spiritual evolution of man - and to recapture the powers of the previous age. (As opposed to new agers, who just sit around and hope it miraculously happens on its own)

....

Crowley was the second central modern occult revivalist. He influenced Gardener and most modern magick practice. Most modern occultism is in fact based on a mixture of golden dawn, eastern occultism and tidbits of remnants of westerm occultism such as what remained of druidic law - rather than based on theosophy (All of which, except for the eastern stuff, is all more or less based on egyptian practice/symbols anyway)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

If your interested in pure egyptian teaching, from the actual time period, read the egyptian book of the dead..(Translated obviously, unless you do heirogylps)......Theres some great stories in there, my favourites being when Thoth tricks set in the desert by pretending to be a foolish, harmless but interesting man, taking another guise - And when Horus tricks Set into eating his own semen :P (lol, but actually very cool symbollic myths in there)

Crowley went on to bring in the eastern influence too, which is where his OTO comes from, and is also heavy in his writing - he wanted to bring in tantra particularly to the western occult practice.

.......


But the great thing here, story/myth/culture wise - the whole alt-history, is with this you can tie in symbology and influences from almost any source (ie like the bible, like jessups episodes) - apart from just being a great rich real world mythology, it allows you to tie so much together easily...

A thought: Its very interesting that other ancient golden society seems to either live, or travel in the ground? Inner child, probe comes to mind....??

I still really _love_ those potential references to air vehicles in egypt. They rock. And that secret tunnel, even modern robots cant get into (they are still working on it), their use of basic batteries, potential balsa wood planes.....

But then I just love mysteries........

Okay, here is the helicopters and such again:

http://www.catchpenny.org/images/abydos2.gif

Another things thats fun about the altantis myth, is that the ordinary folk (non temple people), were just as, if not more than, hedonistic and messed up as modern folk. Something new ager types tend to ignore in the myth, and bad to leave out, because thats why, at least in principle, it fell. Much like the greeks were a golden age, and the romans, a decadent falling society.......Atlantis in the end was a lost civilisation....

And so, a protrayal of altantis, doesnt have to be some glossy fairyland, it can be very gritty. (which would be so refreshing after all these crappy new age portrayals in books and such).

Of course if they use this mythology as an arc, they might be better off ditching either of the names for the civilisations.....?... 'Atlantis' has gotten cheesy associations since the new agers latched onto it....Just use a mix of both ideas, some invention and give it a new name...Hey, what about "First people"...lol?

Its cool that JJ has an Atlantis book in his collection! But not really that surprising :P (/end wild, semi-related ramblings)

[jade86]

Interesting post, The_war_is_already_on!
Unfortunately i'll have to search your wiki informations in Italian language, but this isn't a problem :D
As eager of ancient Egypht, i really really loved the image of air vehicles engraved togheter with the other hieroglyphics. It's all so FASCINATING!
I'm going to love JJ Abrams if part of Fringe storyline is really tied to Atlantis!
It would be interesting if writers made a mix of Atlantis/Agharti. Nazi's were interested in both stories!
And yes, those civilizations could really be the "First People"! :)
The similarities with the Observers are really impressive! Yesterday, i was thinking about the greek sentence that Elizabeth pronounced to Peter every night. Do you think it had to do with first people?
She says "be a better man then your father"....If Peter had inherited the genes from this powerful old people, is possible that with the world "father" she meant a Peter's predecessor, instead of Walter or Walternate? It would be really interesting!
If you remember Agharti's story, the reign of those inhabitants was ruled by the King od the World toghether with a council formed of 12 members. (for the time being we know that Observers are 12, because thay have the same name of months or signs of zodiac :P). What if Peter was a sort of successor of this monarch? This could be reason why he is so important for the observers.
I've also found a prophecy about king of Agartha, where there will be an apocalipt war between humans...It mentioned also half moons (there are half moons in Peter's prophecy too) related to this end of the world for humans and the reemergence of these ancient people from the subsoil.
I can't find the entire prophecy in English, i'm sorry.

[jade86]

Double post, sorry :P

[The_war_is_already_on]

There are twelve preist-kings "gods" that sailed from atlantis, and 12 disciples + messiah in the NT, as well as 12 witches + High Preist/ess in a coven. 12, and 12+1 heirarch are very occult numbers associated with the highest spiritual power. (12 tribes of israel, 144,000 saved in revelations =, multiple of 12's), 12 signs in the zodiac, on and on and on...

12 is a strong number, in terms of symbology and is also connected to other dimensions and existences, as well as 13, 10, 11 and 3 is connected to the "eye of god", the ultimately transcedent plane of pure truth.

So, its not all suprising there is a council of 12 here, or even that there are twelve observers seeing JJ is into mad s**t too. (There was also 12 gods, and 12 tribes/planets in the battlestar galactica re-imagined series, which was strong on symbollic biblical allusions) - and 12 + 1 rulers of the world in the illumanti myth (The majestic 12).

[The_war_is_already_on]

You know I think I remember somewhere back in this thread, entering a small rabbit hole with the sign "Crazy wacked out theories and other mind insanity" outside. ....

[jade86]

Hummm....I didn't know there were also 12 twelve preist-kings "gods" from Atlantis. Interesting! :)
What do you think about the greek sentence?

[The_war_is_already_on]

Yeah someone else pointed out that phrase could be to do with the first people. The greeks had their own mystery schools/secret society:the delphi preisthood, and ancient greece is where the first writings about atlantis actaully come from (plato I beleive, was the first to write of atlantis, and he was also connected to the mystery school in delphi in some theories)...

So yeah, totally fits, even just the use of older language on its own...(But if father means anscestors, sort of ties into atlantis, and also the thule evolution thing even more)

[jade86]

So yeah, totally fits, even just the use of older language on its own...(But if father means anscestors, sort of ties into atlantis, and also the thule evolution thing even more)

After having read the history of Atlantis, i think is really possible :happy15:

[Montecito]

Occult organisations like the golden dawn, and the masons have tried to preserve their traditions from the deep deep past - yes, most certainly because of the inquisition and such they are secret, but from even before then, as open societies they attempted to draw back to some kind of symbolic/magickal/spiritual purity from the far past. The symbols, rituals etc are like a gem to protect.


i can't really understand what freemasonry has that it's like a gem to protect..:confused:

[The_war_is_already_on]

Well perhaps modern freemasonry is a poor example, because they are more or less into the symbollism in itself now, for a way of life, rather than as an occult secret......Although the symbollism and rituals have the same occult origins as any other secret society...

But definately golden dawn and many others try to protect their rituals, teachings and such very carefully.

The freemasons do have lots of ritual secrets and such, puzzles, handshakes, signs and such - each level of freemasonry allows greater access to the info (which is pretty much standard in secretive occult groups, same deal with GD, OTO, temple of set, etc etc - just becoming an inititiate is usually either a test, or a sort of application process)

The public has only had very low level stuff revealled (like some symbols, early rituals and handshakes), basic concepts and stuff, so really hard to say how seriously they take their higher level rituals and such - but they must be pretty secret either way..

They regard their symbols, such as the temple of solomon (that two pillar thing with the chessboard floor - a bit like what they had in twin peaks, lol), the set square and such as ancient wisdoms - as important knowledge to understanding life.......(or in the more common masons, probably just as guides to living well, like the bible is for some)

But all the other secret societies generally regard the knowledge, not only as the most important knowledge there is to preserve and protect from corruption (Ie, the ultimate "truth" about reality - a sort of ancient science)- but a key to power, and dangerous. For most occultists, basically the older you can trace something back (without it changing), the better it is.........

Early occultists (ancient), and many modern ones, couch everything they say in elusive, coded and contradictory manners, so that only someone _already versed_ and deep in magick, can understand the true meaning.

Good examples - emerald tablet of hermes, much hermetic writing, many aspects of the bible, the egyptian book of the dead, or in the modern day, crowley is the best example of really saying something other than what your saying. This isnt "mystic" vagueness (like the tao is for example), or all just some kind of symbollic thing, its purely just hiding the info from the "profane" (the unintiated masses)....

But masons arent hugely into the magick aspect, as far as I know. Their rituals are more simply ceremonial and symbollic in nature...But then, they do still hide it...

Whats facinating to me, is how things like sacred geometry play in, to nature, to magick, and via the russian physics, even to physics (the russians and others found shape and proportion effects basic matter - and conciousness also does this - which would make magickal teaching like alchemy is to modern chemistry - a primitive science with cause-effect based and comphrensible basis beneath it we just dont understand yet fully). Add in the amazing sacred geometry of things like the pyramids, and the way these ideas permeate our society. (crop circles even?) ....Maybe it is an ancient science, like a blurry xerox of an ancient science book that is so advanced it seems "like magic"?

[jade86]

.....

[Montecito]

The freemasons do have lots of ritual secrets and such, puzzles, handshakes, signs and such - each level of freemasonry allows greater access to the info (which is pretty much standard in secretive occult groups, same deal with GD, OTO, temple of set, etc etc - just becoming an inititiate is usually either a test, or a sort of application process)

The public has only had very low level stuff revealled (like some symbols, early rituals and handshakes), basic concepts and stuff, so really hard to say how seriously they take their higher level rituals and such - but they must be pretty secret either way..

They regard their symbols, such as the temple of solomon (that two pillar thing with the chessboard floor - a bit like what they had in twin peaks, lol), the set square and such as ancient wisdoms - as important knowledge to understanding life.......(or in the more common masons, probably just as guides to living well, like the bible is for some)

Good examples - emerald tablet of hermes, much hermetic writing, many aspects of the bible, the egyptian book of the dead, or in the modern day, crowley is the best example of really saying something other than what your saying. This isnt "mystic" vagueness (like the tao is for example), or all just some kind of symbollic thing, its purely just hiding the info from the "profane" (the unintiated masses)....

But masons arent hugely into the magick aspect, as far as I know. Their rituals are more simply ceremonial and symbollic in nature...But then, they do still hide it...

i know that stuff you mention from some articles that i have read..

but still i find them very general...

for example buddhists believe in reincarnation..

jews at a single god..

christians at christ..

i still can't understand what freemasons believe..

they say that they don't believe in the devil..

fine, but can they tell us what they believe..?

and i know that you would tell me that freemasonry is not a religion..

but looks like a religion and nobody (even the members of lower ranks) know what they believe..

[The_war_is_already_on]

^officially, at least at the lower levels, to me, it is a religion. Its very unitarian though in nature (ie, they beleive in a creator, or mosts lodges do, but not much more specific than that). The building metaphors, are sort of references to the creator - sort of aim to be like the creator. Theres loads of other stuff there, and in some ways its more like a symbollic philosophy, about personal betterment, as for how seriously they take the metaphysics and beleifs, I dont know. Seems like its pretty casual for the lower levels. Higher up? Who knows, thats what being secret is about...(Although I doubt they are devil worshippers, or black magicians, because they dont espouse even a guised left-hand morality, in public. No point in recruiting good-doers for a child sacrifice party - unless they are the special guest :P)

If you want to find some out and out devil worshipers, google "temple of set" (Set is the egyptian god of destuction and domination. Actually your not supposed to say his name, lol!), or "church of satan" :P

Sorry everyone else for getting so off-topic, theory land and wandery!!!

.....

[jade86]

About the meaning of yellow, i have just read that the descendants of Atlantis covered their buildings with a yellow metal enormously precious for the ancient Greeks :confused0006:
We saw a lot of yellow, especially in "over there" (the coffee-pot and the coffee cups in the scene with Peter and alt-elizabeth, the panel in walternate's office, the drink in the scene with Peter and Walternate)...

[Montecito]

about personal betterment

yeah but.. everbody speaks about personal betterment..

religions, political parties, philosophy, sports activities etc..
they don't have something special..

i think they just advertise something that they don't truly have..

some people think that if they go to freemasons would understand the meaning of life or posses secret knowledge..

and i think that is not true..

[The_war_is_already_on]

Yeah the yellow thing could be connected to _gold_, which has very established symbollic meaning, of spiritual purity/evolution, and also a connection to alchemy (transmutation to perfection) - and supposedly is valuable as a metal to aliens according to some out their alien stories...??? Aztecs and many ancient people were obsessed with it. Note also halos in religious pictures are gold.. (and gold auras have very similar meaning to that also).....I wonder does platos account of atlantis mention gold?.....im off to search it :P

yeah, what if its not yellow in the cortixi flashes, its _gold_? That's a very cool thought........

Random search finds. Platos account lists gold several times. They inlay their temples with it, there are two pillars of gold by their central temple, and the temples had gold statues......Of course the buddhists, celts and many others put this focus on gold...

Some more gold symbollism:

wealth, god, winning, safety, masculine power, happiness, playful humour, prestige, wisdom, love of spirit, meaning, purpose, awe, spiritual love, quests of the heart, desire for power, mystic powers, the sun, higher mathematics, sciences, attainment, power, concentration - also golden mean(phi, golden spiral)

yeah, heck gold as a symbol fits probably much better that yellow for cortixi mind powers....


some people think that if they go to freemasons would understand the meaning of life or posses secret knowledge..

and i think that is not true..Yeah, thats part of the pull of secret societies in general. Most people dont know the same kind of info is in public, in books like the emerald tablet of hermes and such, even distilled in hermeticism and gnosticism etc- and its your brain that has to do the work to understand the ideas and live them anyway - plus you dont generally get god powers at the end :P

All of it is so covered in mystery and symbollism, even when they might have an super important secret of some kind, they may not even know it.......

What is it from the bible? "Let he who has ears, hear".....Yeah, its a pitfall for many to always seek all the answers outside of themselves..

[jade86]

yeah, heck gold as a symbol fits probably much better that yellow for cortixi mind powers....


Yeah! If yellow we saw in "cortexi-world" is actually gold and it comes from lost cities like Atlantis...if it has to do with first people/observers....if Peter is "the chosen one", the unique descendant of this ancient and powerful civilization thanks to his DNA.....then we could say that Peter is really the source of the drug! :shiny:

[The_war_is_already_on]

^ Yeah, that totally works...

hey, even cooler, fringeling found this in another thread, about the observer writing:

http://fringe-forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=649&d=1228947755

Its alchemical (turning lead into gold) writing (also related to zodiac symbollism), and there are definately characters in the observer writing which come from here (but may also connect to the zodiac - as their are twelve observers...)

There was an easter egg in episode ten connected to alchemy (its at the start of the fringeling thread mentioned above)

Okay, and just for some gratitous fun with the gold colour idea:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/SOD/SODimages2/083_Lamentationangelico38.jpghttp://wobbemassage.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/psychic-mind-powers-meditation-thumb3399300.jpghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:vnUcGItqGo4yiM:http://www.eso-garden.com/images/uploads_bilder/learn_to_see_your_aura_3.jpg

Also what about the "glimmer", on peter? Maybe its not just cause hes from the alt world? Or that maybe related too....Also the clue from over there part two "bask in the warm glow of scotch whisky"...

Hmmm...Yellow is about fear and attraction, doesnt fit (maybe slightly). Gold fits like a glove.......

[jade86]

About gold, the matals are also linked to the planets and to humans organs.
Gold > Sun > Heart (Peter's heart in "brown betty"?? O.O)



^ Yeah, that totally works...

hey, even cooler, fringeling found this in another thread, about the observer writing:

http://fringe-forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=649&d=1228947755

Its alchemical (turning lead into gold) writing (also related to zodiac symbollism), and there are definately characters in the observer writing which come from here (but may also connect to the zodiac - as their are twelve observers...)

There was an easter egg in episode ten connected to alchemy (its at the start of the fringeling thread mentioned above)

Okay, and just for some gratitous fun with the gold colour idea:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/SOD/SODimages2/083_Lamentationangelico38.jpghttp://wobbemassage.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/psychic-mind-powers-meditation-thumb3399300.jpghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:vnUcGItqGo4yiM:http://www.eso-garden.com/images/uploads_bilder/learn_to_see_your_aura_3.jpg

Also what about the "glimmer", on peter? Maybe its not just cause hes from the alt world? Or that maybe related too....Also the clue from over there part two "bask in the warm glow of scotch whisky"...

Hmmm...Yellow is about fear and attraction, doesnt fit (maybe slightly). Gold fits like a glove.......

OH MY GOD!!!!! THE OBSERVER'S WRITING!! O_________O
You're right!! Peter's glimmer, that we saw ONLY AROUND HIS HEAD in "jacksonville" and "momentum deferred", could have to do not only with his origins!

[The_war_is_already_on]

^ remember people noticed some "orbs", or "motes" of gold light around peter, for example in "momentum deferred", similar to the _gold_ (hehehe) orbs found near the glyphs..............

http://www.fringebloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/fborb2.jpg

Hmmm, peters heart....there may be something in that there.......The sun part, the male projecting out energy, is a big part of gold symbolism - much like a special "power source", which peters heart also was (ie a heart, and a sun like source of power)- and also why gold is associated with mind powers etc....

Theres sun symbollism in the end of season one too:

http://www.fringebloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/in_pictures00068.jpg

(Not sure if I can post either of those pics)

I think this gold thing weve come up with is awesome myself :D

Its like theres a whole tapestry of intricate connections here ------ I think im gonna gave to look back at some other easter eggs now :P

[jade86]

All this stuff is so......ILLUMINATING :P

[The_war_is_already_on]

lol, nice pun! :) .....of course this is all probably leading me up to some obsessive re-watching fan theory re-watching now........:D

Other random finds....

NWP - "known here by the regulars for my playlists. I base my tracks on people's aura"...(NWP)
The solar radiation link to the crossing device walternate uses...(man from the other side)
Peter's special gold coin.......
Walters gold ring (in the comics) and the one walter noticed in power hungry casually.
"Little Star" in unearthed...

(hey its more fun than looking for "special codes" in newspaper clippings :P)

[jade86]

lol, nice pun! :) .....of course this is all probably leading me up to some obsessive re-watching fan theory re-watching now........:D

I really like your obsessions! :shiny:
If you have other illuminating theories about what we talked until now, let me know :D

[Montecito]

(Not sure if I can post either of those pics)


yes you can because it is Roco's (administrator's) blog:D

[The_war_is_already_on]

^ Great :)

Other random bits - some juicy bits here I think..... As I mentioned earlier in "the dreamscape" theres this symbol on this nearby van. The symbol appears in "safe", on the surveyors van (ie loeb etc and the zft type dudes), along with the phrase "Trevisanus Bro Estimators". Still was all looked into by fringeling, and not me but....:

Its a famous alchemists name. Heres the wiki page on him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Trevisan

Heres fringelings thread: http://fringe-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1490

Interesting the symbol looks pretty occult too, a bit like the masons symbol actually, but with an infinity inside....

......

Similarly occult, and tied to egypt : "Seen on the wrist of Paris/Bell in Walter's memory/flashback (in grey matters), the DJED symbol. (pretty damn interesting this one too)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

And while we are on symbols, theres the "aleph" on olivias uncles kayak in her dream sequence (greek), and the unknown symbol on newtons neck (which I dont think has been identified)

Walters notes (actually full of ancient mythology/symbols, gods from vulcan, venus and related materials, the da vinci man), for "The dreamscape" (Thats two hits on dreamscape now", mentions Exodus, Chapter 8, Verse 3 (King James Version of the Bible) It describes the second plague (blight?) imposed on Egypt for Pharaoh's failure to release the Israelites. Another walters notes, shows a photograph of a hellenic (greek) sphinx and a typed reference to that object being the symbol of Army Intelligence. Of course prometheus was the old name of Massive dynamic, before they invented that one.......

Interesting on the walters notes tip re:observers/first people/prophecy and more he also says "it all begans with (greek) x,y,z", and peter "is the key to it all" (or something similar), in his notes...

Also whats up with geometry, phi etc being so important to science, like the way walternate crossed to here (triangle), or walters lab? Thats like the same kind mystic/magickal/science tie in you find in torsion physics........More I think about the numbers/phi etc (and they are in the glyphs too, golden spiral etc), the more I think there might be more yet on the sacred geometry. (Perhaps they will say this is why the pyramids were built by sacred geometry, as some kinda of science/technology device!)

[Montecito]

hey wary.. is this has anything to do with the stuff that you know about? (ancint civilizations and stuff)?

it is from the pilot when olivia was dreaming things from the tank
http://black-celebration.net/caps/albums/fringe/1x01/1x01_1116.jpg
(http://fringe-forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=187411&postcount=116)

[jade86]

I read that the origins of almast all the ancient civilizations had to do with Atlantis, included Peruvians. After all these possible "illuminating" connections between Fringe and Atlantis's story, i could understand the meaning of what Nina told Peter in the episode "The Cure", before they came to an agreement.

Nina: "Now I have all kinds of information, Peter, and some of it does me no good. Well, take the Aymara people, for instance, of Central Peru. I know that the soil beneath their land houses a naturally occurring metal alloy that is potentially hyper-conductive. I also know that you have managed to successfully conduct business with these and other tribal concerns, in parts of the world traditionally resistant to development"

Why did Nina involve just these old civilizations?

In my opinion, she knows who really peter is.

[jade86]

hey wary.. is this has anything to do with the stuff that you know about? (ancint civilizations and stuff)?

it is from the pilot when olivia was dreaming things from the tank
http://black-celebration.net/caps/albums/fringe/1x01/1x01_1116.jpg
(http://fringe-forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=187411&postcount=116)

You can find that symbol also in August's notebook :happy15:

[The_war_is_already_on]

^yeah, thats a "Phoenician" (A people near syria around 1200 BC–539 BC) "Aleph" (the first symbol of some early alphabets, and the origin of our "A", and greek "alpha" and more)...

The precursor to the Phoenician alphabet was likely Egyptian according to more wiki stuff...they seem to also worship some egyptian gods, such as osiris and isis, Amen, as well as some babylonian influences in their culture, and also greek and influence the other way back to the greeks (Really quite the mix there)......

:) ;) Perfect fit....

Heres the wiki stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

In gemetria (hebrew sacred numerology), it also represents the number "1", the animal: ox, it is the first letter for the the three mystic names for god in hebrew mythology...Simplist symbolism would be something like 'one', 'first' or 'begining', much like we use the word 'alpha', which could connect to first(1st) people or similar...

So basically it means 'alpha'...

But no one knows what "zeno" means, apart from massive dynamics "zeno transit", which is on their ARG website as some form of ultra fast travel. Interesting that the GGGR sequence is on the kayak, as well!!! :D

Only known link to "zeno" apart from the MD thing, is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea

Some interesting ancient greek philosopher chick....."Zeno can be interpreted as saying that to assume there is plurality is even more absurd than assuming there is only "the One" ....her actually opening to her argument - "if being is many, it must be both like and unlike, and this is impossible, for neither can the like be unlike, nor the unlike like"

- Yes she argued it using something like forty different paradoxs! (My head hurts reading that!)

Now if thats a link, thats some very interesting stuff....

.......


....That link to peru did seem rather odd on reflection...., but actually alot of these ancient culture references are starting to seem quite the "pattern" now.......

Another poss. link up: The word "Monarch" was a clue for olivia once, and butterflies are a theme. Butterflies represent transformation, as in spiritual transformation, or spirit itself - a bit like our colour gold. But heres the interesting part - monarch butterflies transmit _acquired knowledge_ via their genes (I suppose a bit like those worms, but via genes not cannabillism)........Now I advise not oversearching that one word (monarch), because there are these mad as conspiracy nuts who think the whole world is under some demonic mind control program called "monarch" :P - but it could tie in here (the actual monarch butterfly, not the mad nuts), all very well to the lineage, peter thing...

[Montecito]

it would be interesting if we create an rpg with your ideas..:P

the rpg section is a little dead for a long time..:D

[The_war_is_already_on]

^yeah true, it is a very dead there. Hard to keep that sort of thing going on forums.. I may well use some of this stuff for my fanfic though!?? ;P

If your keen to do an RPG here, id pitch in. But some of this is possibly too huge as mythology to explore in a simple manner/story etc, as the RPG would likely be - or at least in the mystery style of writing:P

Heck, even if I tried to cram all this into my fanfic, id be writing for _ages_ to work it all out as a mystery :D

Oh, side note, it appears that symbol on the van in safe and dreamscape is also alchemical, or very similar to an alchemical symbol..., like the name drop clue...

I mean, we have "aleph", "zeno" (pilot), alchemy easter egg (dreamscape, safe), gold/sun/yellow, "monarch", "first people", "the machine", observer writing, sacred geometry/numbers, speaking in greek to peter, the egyptian symbol bell had on in grey matters and quite a few more old culture references. (jessups bible stuff, walters notes.....probably much more too)... This theory is looking good IMO :) (Even if its just allusion in the end, not arc, it seems quite delibrate and broad...)

[The_war_is_already_on]

Heres another good related theory, by rocco at fringebloggers: Are the fringe glyphs based on peruvian geoglyphs? (that brings our peru into the picture).....

http://www.fringebloggers.com/crackpot-theory-the-secret-mythology-of-the-fringe-glyphs/ (http://www.fringebloggers.com/crackpot-theory-the-secret-mythology-of-the-fringe-glyphs/)

(I can actually see some similarity, animals and nature with sacred geometry mixed in, yeah I see it)

[jade86]

Heres another good related theory, by rocco at fringebloggers: Are the fringe glyphs based on peruvian geoglyphs? (that brings our peru into the picture).....

http://www.fringebloggers.com/crackpot-theory-the-secret-mythology-of-the-fringe-glyphs/ (http://www.fringebloggers.com/crackpot-theory-the-secret-mythology-of-the-fringe-glyphs/)

(I can actually see some similarity, animals and nature with sacred geometry mixed in, yeah I see it)

Yeahhh! I was right! Roco mentioned Nina's conversation with Peter, too! :D

[Obyron]

The Zeno thing seems like a reference to Zeno's Paradoxes, which are examples of infinite processes. If the distance from point A to point B is 100 meters, you have to travel halfway there in order to get all the way there. The problem is that if you keep traveling halfway and halfway and halfway, you can go on for infinity but never reach your destination.

Another is that Achilles and a turtle race one another. Achilles gives the turtle a 100 meter head start. After a certain amount of time Achilles must have run the 100 meters to get to the turtle's initial starting position, but in that time the turtle has run some lesser distance, and so say it's now 75 meters ahead. So Achilles runs the 75 meters, but in that time, the turtle has moved ahead some lesser distance, and is now 25 meters ahead. It keeps going and going with Achilles always reaching the turtle's last location, but never being able to catch up. They're simplistic thought experiments by the standards of modern logic, but they were good enough for Archimedes. :)

It's also related to quantum mechanics. In quantum theory you can either know how fast a particle is moving, or you can know it's precise location, but not both, because observing one changes the other. You can use observation to inhibit the quantum system and basically bring it to a halt, which is called the Quantum Zeno Effect. It's named after another of his paradoxes, called Zeno's Arrow, wherein if a thing has a known location it has to be sitting still in that moment. An arrow fired from a bow has a precise location at each moment of its travel, and so paradoxically the arrow is both moving and not moving.

Heady stuff. :)

And for the record, Freemasonry isn't a religion. It's not really appropriate to talk about what Freemasons "believe," because the question has no meaning in the theological sense. All Freemasons ascribe to a belief in a higher power, but we don't care what it is as long as you're willing to admit there's something greater than yourself. It can either be God or the Buddha or the Tao or Allah or the creative force of the Universe. Which is why there are Jewish Masons, Hindu Masons, Catholic Masons, etc. It's not a belief system, it's just an allegorical system for teaching morality. The Temple of Solomon is a reference to bettering yourself as a person, and "building the temple" is a metaphor for the act of improving yourself and making your mind a temple before the world. There's a saying that the secrets of Freemasonry are "secret" not because we can't tell you, but because if you were told them out of the proper context, you wouldn't understand the significance. It's not a secret society, because you can look us up in the phone book. It's a society with secrets.

A lot of people who want to rail against Freemasons would do better to spend their time protesting Scientology. ;)

[Montecito]

A lot of people who want to rail against Freemasons would do better to spend their time protesting Scientology. ;)

just because i don't like something .. it doesn't mean i am protesting..

don't i have the right to dislike something like a secret society? :confused:

especially if i don't know what happens in the 33rd rank?

what if you go to the 33rd rank and find something awful going on?

how can you be a part of something if you doesn't know what happens in the higher ranks?:confused:

[Obyron]

Because they're not ranks. It doesn't work that way. A 33rd degree Scottish Rite mason does not "outrank" a 13th degree York Rite mason, and neither "outranks" a 3rd degree Master Mason. The 3rd degree is the highest degree in masonry. The rest is just window dressing. I'm a 13th degree in the York Rite. I have family members who have something called the Knight York Cross of Honor, which is the York Rite equivalent to the Scottish Rite 33rd degree-- it's a select thing not given to just anyone, but you have to be voted into it by other people who've done it, as a reward for service to fraternity (serving as an officer, doing charity work, etc.; being more than just a guy who pays your dues and shows up to a meeting every now and then). I have more than one family member who's been a Deputy Grand Master for the state. I've known three state Grand Masters, which is as high as it gets (there is no "Grand Lodge of the United States." The individual state Grand Lodges are sovereign entities).

I haven't personally done the Scottish Rite, but I have many friends who have, and I know two guys who've done the 33rd. I'm a Shriner-- the people who give absolutely free hospital care to kids? Free prosthetics? Free burn care? Free spinal surgery? Some of the best hospitals in the world? One of the nicest guys I know was the Potentate of our Shrine, and he's never mentioned anything about the Imperial Potentate sacrificing anyone to Satan, or to some crazy crab monster. I've done the Royal Arch degree (it's part of the York Rite), and there was nothing in there about worshiping a three-headed crab.

I've read every scrap of Masonic literature I can get my hands on. I've attended research lodges where you have really passionate guys who study the history of the fraternity going back centuries. I'm telling you there's nothing in there that's sinister, and I guarantee you're not going to reveal some shocking secret about Freemasons that I don't already know. There have been some lodges that have done bad stuff, just like there have been some Germans who did bad stuff, and some Jews who did bad stuff, and some Democrats who did bad stuff, but that doesn't affect the whole.

You can read all about the lodge Propaganda Due (P2) in Italy who were into all kinds of crazy criminal stuff (Silvio Burlesconi was/is a member), and you can also read about how they had their charter revoked and were completely disavowed because of it. But that's not the whole fraternity, and that's not the mainstream of the fraternity. I've been to lodges (two in Georgia) that I got up and walked out of because of the racist discussion that was going on, and I'm not going to be associated with that. But that's not the whole fraternity. There are bad Masons. No surprise, because there are bad people everywhere. But the vast majority of the nicest, kindest, give-you-their-last-dollar people I have ever met in my life were Freemasons, and none of us are out killing chickens under the full moon and worshiping Baphomet.

Don't believe everything you read. You're free not to believe this, but I'd posit that I'm a slightly better source than some schizophrenic conspiracy theorists who's off his medication writing crap on his blog about how we all smear each other with peanut butter and sing paeans to Lucifer under the new moon.

[Obyron]

Deleted. Double post bug.

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

Also what about the "glimmer", on peter? Maybe its not just cause hes from the alt world? Or that maybe related too....


Something has bothered me because the woman Rebecca, who Walter gave LSD to as a teenager, said she saw Peter glimmer as a baby, didn't she? And that would have been the OTHER Peter. So if both Peter's were special in the way we are all now thinking, it would make more sense why she saw him glimmer as a baby.

[jade86]

I was observing the version of the prophecy that the observer gave to Olivia.
There are these sequences that are continually repeated, changing the disposition of the nitrogenous bases that are in turn repeated and in total they are 8. I have noticed however that there are at most 5 repetitions of sequences with the same disposition of the nitrogenous bases and they are 9. I highlighted those sequences in red.
I don't know if it means something.
What do you think?

http://a.imagehost.org/0752/000_20Observer_20sketch_1.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0752/000_20Observer_20sketch_1)

[jade86]

Something has bothered me because the woman Rebecca, who Walter gave LSD to as a teenager, said she saw Peter glimmer as a baby, didn't she? And that would have been the OTHER Peter. So if both Peter's were special in the way we are all now thinking, it would make more sense why she saw him glimmer as a baby.

Maybe that baby was Peter 2 :confused0006:

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

I was observing the version of the prophecy that the observer gave to Olivia.
There are these sequences that are continually repeated, changing the disposition of the nitrogenous bases that are in turn repeated and in total they are 8. I have noticed however that there are at most 5 repetitions of sequences with the same disposition of the nitrogenous bases and they are 9. I highlighted those sequences in red.
I don't know if it means something.
What do you think?


I think you might be reading too much into it. Whatever graphic designer/prop person charged with making this paper probably just copy and pasted the sequences. I know I would if I had that job.

[jade86]

I think you might be reading too much into it. Whatever graphic designer/prop person charged with making this paper probably just copy and pasted the sequences. I know I would if I had that job.

Maybe you're right...But what i mean is why those sequences in red are slightly different compared to the others?

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

since I don't know anything about genetics, I can't even speculate! maybe it's like the seahorse from Bishop Revival, somebody's 'signature' inserted in there.

[jade86]

since I don't know anything about genetics, I can't even speculate! maybe it's like the seahorse from Bishop Revival, somebody's 'signature' inserted in there.

I don't know anything about genetics, too :haha:
Maybe The_War_is_already_on can help us with this :D

[jade86]

Ok, i have found other two of those sequences. In total they are 6 and the disposition is odd, but i have no idea what it could mean. Maybe i'm too obsessed :ashamed0001:

http://j.imagehost.org/0643/000_20Observer_20sketch_1.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0643/000_20Observer_20sketch_1)

[The_war_is_already_on]

Well, all I know, of that one, is its a gene sequence that seems to repeat ? I do remmeber several overt in show references to signatures in chemicals, and in genes. That could be a clue to try and look for a code. How did the zft base code work, when they left their gene signature?

Also, does the other version have script or something? I seem to remember some historical script hodgepodge like the observer script...

......

Two phrases on the search "history":

Bell:"I've seen history repeat itself enough times to know a war is coming"

Walter:"always agreed that that primal part of the brain which allows us to cross universes is also responsible for a host of - of paranormal activities -- pyrokinesis, telepathy, thought control. And that we all had these abilities until… ‘til there was a moment in history when something was done to us, and -- and it was shut down. I suspect aliens."

Also in unearthed the virus :Walter estimates the virus to be 75,000 years old, and to be responsible for the eradication of the ice-age mammals - AND :), came from ten miles below the earths surface ;P

(So that makes the count: beacon, inner child + virus that wiped out ice age mammals, all from under the ground)

And whats up with bell saying hes seen history repeat itself, is that just him saying hes seen a few wars in his life, or what??? (Transdimensional war isnt your everyday event)

[The_war_is_already_on]

Heres the aleph so everyone can see:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Phoenician_aleph.svg/30px-Phoenician_aleph.svg.png (On olivias uncles kayak, aleph meaning 1, or first, or begining)


Theory thoughts on the kayak: So does this mean olivias uncle has something to do with the first people, or observers, or something? GGGR is also there. Spoooooky. And zeno connects to Zeno's paradox's, and is referenced by MD's zeno transit in a most interesting way on their ARG website. So is MD connected to observers, or first people? And what does the references actually allude to? Will we later see MD's amazing "paradoxical" almost instant travel device and it somehow connects to the philosopher?


.....


Could anyone do me a _huge_ favour and post screencaps up for all the symbols that have been found that might link in to this general theory (alchemy, ancient cultures etc - could make it easier for other people to see what we are on about) ?

*Aleph - the pilot in the dream sequence (someone already posted that, so we can just put it in further on)
*the alchemy type one with infinity inside on the vans in dreamscape - in background during chase, and safe - on the surveryors van, ie loeb and zft
*The one on the shapeshifters neck
*The DJED on bells wrist during grey matters

And possibly some observer script, some of the prophecy machine script....

And anything i missed out, that was already mentioned?

I would do it, but ive nowhere really to host the pictures........:/

[The_war_is_already_on]

Heres the alchemy reference/symbol etc:

http://fringe-forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=639&stc=1&d=1228769745

[The_war_is_already_on]

Some more on the color gold/"yellow", related to our general general musings (be cool if we could get on with peter and his mum having coffee with gold stuff too, and the one with the sun behind olivias head when she meets bell first time):

In the classroom at jacksonville:

http://www.fringebloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/yellow.jpg

And of course the "arrow"/"tree" from inner child:

http://www.fringebloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/fb_multiverse.jpg

[jade86]

Yesterday i was rewatching "momentum deferred" and i noted that Rebecca Kibner's house is also yellow :D
I also discovered a thing that i have never noted before: in "there's more than one of everything" walter wrote the word "prophecY" with Bell's typewryter and then showed it to Peter :ninja:

http://j.imagehost.org/t/0992/fringe119-069.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0992/fringe119-069)

[Montecito]

I also discovered a thing that i have never noted before: in "there's more than one of everything" walter wrote the word "prophecY" with Bell's typewryter and then showed it to Peter :ninja:


WOW Amazing find! It can't be a coincedence!:happy15:

[jade86]

WOW Amazing find! It can't be a coincedence!:happy15:

I don't believe in coincidence anymore, especially when we talk about Fringe :confused0066:
The amazing thing is also that walter, with the same typewriter, wrote "abilitY" referred to Olivia's power. This is a possible clue that the prophecy is the origin of ZFT philosophy, or part of it!

[The_war_is_already_on]

^ Well we have totally skipped over how walter and bell knew a war was coming, (and nina etc), in order for the ZFT manuals to come out.....right?

So we dont know that part yet at all.

Beleive me, the fact that it looked like they mysterious knew the future somehow wasnt lost on me, or others....

(I thought it might be from the observers)

Assuming its a prophecy, or equivilant, and can have been around for awhile.......it could be quite complex for the major players in the thing...

I think olivias kayak links in MD to know about the history, the observers would obviously know, and the alchemy symbol links in ZFT. Plus, you then have to wonder about others, the CIA, NSA, kelvin genetics, fresh start soap, or the nazi's robert bishop worked for....and other groups the show has seen (the rogue).

It makes for very good intrigue, all that conflict secrets and motives, if indeed the knowledge came from the past, and people all knew about it.......

I think that prophecy one is a GREAT clue - to figure out the peter scroll for sure...

Wonder who made the prophecy? :ninja:(do I here a first people?)

[jade86]

Wonder who made the prophecy? :ninja:(do I here a first people?)

I think a first people too :happy15:

[jade86]

Do you think there are references to Olivia's kayak?

http://h.imagehost.org/0570/Immagine_7.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0570/Immagine_7)

[Obyron]

Good catch! I wouldn't doubt it. I was beginning to wonder if the kayak was just a throwaway random thing they'd forgotten about (and that maybe the Aleph and the word Zeno were the important part, not the kayak).

[Montecito]

when Peter was sleeping in drake's bay motel (northwest passage) this was played in the tv before he wakes up.. i think they are Sunflowers

http://black-celebration.net/caps/albums/fringe/2x20/2x20_0081.jpg

http://black-celebration.net/caps/albums/fringe/2x20/2x20_0080.jpg

also is this reference to the symbol of freemasonry? again from Northwest Passage

http://black-celebration.net/caps/albums/fringe/2x20/2x20_0788.jpg

http://black-celebration.net/caps/albums/fringe/2x20/2x20_0787.jpg

http://black-celebration.net/caps/albums/fringe/2x20/2x20_0786.jpg

[jade86]

Wow montecito! I like the freemasonry thing, related to Peter! I read that one of freemasons's aspects was the belief of a suprem being, called "Big Architect of the Universe" (i think this appellation fits very well with Peter).

Another possible meaningful scene is from "the man from the other side":

http://a.imagehost.org/0177/normal_Fringe218_0637.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0177/normal_Fringe218_0637)

The sunflowers are also interesting, but i don't understand their meaning. Can you explain please? :)

[Montecito]

but i don't understand their meaning. Can you explain please? :)

well you know.. yellow, gold, sun god of egyptians etc..:P

Much of the meaning of sunflowers stems from its namesake, the sun itself. Wild sunflowers are often photographed with their tall stalks and bright petals stretched towards the sun. This unique behavior, known as phototropism, is a motif that has appeared in many ancient myths and is viewed as a symbol of loyalty and constancy. Their physical resemblance to the sun has also influenced their meanings. The sunflower’s petals have been likened to bright yellow rays of sunshine, which evoke feelings of warmth and happiness. In addition, the sunflower is often associated with adoration and longevity.
from http://mara-gamiel.blogspot.com/2007/12/sunflower-symbolism.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/img/09500.jpg

[jade86]

I added a screencap :P

[jade86]

well you know.. yellow, gold, sun god of egyptians etc..:P

Much of the meaning of sunflowers stems from its namesake, the sun itself. Wild sunflowers are often photographed with their tall stalks and bright petals stretched towards the sun. This unique behavior, known as phototropism, is a motif that has appeared in many ancient myths and is viewed as a symbol of loyalty and constancy. Their physical resemblance to the sun has also influenced their meanings. The sunflower’s petals have been likened to bright yellow rays of sunshine, which evoke feelings of warmth and happiness. In addition, the sunflower is often associated with adoration and longevity.
from http://mara-gamiel.blogspot.com/2007/12/sunflower-symbolism.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/img/09500.jpg

I.........CAN'T..............BELIEVE! :confused0066:

[xevious]

Lots of interesting ideas presented here. At least an hour of reading. :reader:
:haha:


My own take on the observers is that they are dispatched to record specific details of various events across time, not to influence them. As we all know, historical records are inherently light on information. There's nothing quite as telling as being there.

Well, the observers are not supposed to interfere (just observe), yet we have seen cases where an observer does manage to interfere, either directly (as in "August") or indirectly (as in "Peter"). As in quantum physics, observation has an influence. Anytime an observer enters a restaurant and orders one of his ultra-spicy meals, he is influencing things. But it's a matter of whether or not that influence has it's own internal closure, not having any reverberating effects on anything else. If a waitress was meant to meet a certain customer and ends up missing that opportunity because she served an observer, he has inadvertently affected the course of history. Same thing if his order of roast beef causes the restaurant to run out for a given customer, who chooses something else that leads them to order something else that takes longer to eat, thus shifting their "participation" in their environment (like affecting inclusion or exclusion in a possible accident).


I hope we do learn about their origin at some point, but I'm not betting on it. There's a certain inherent mystery to it that might serve better to remain a mystery, depending upon how other aspects of Fringe are wrapped up in the coming seasons.
:observer:

[Obyron]

I doubt it was a reference to Freemasonry any more so than it would be if they showed Peter tending a beehive (which is also a masonic symbol). He's using a compasses to draw a circle. It's what the thing is made for. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I used them in elementary school, and in high school Geometry class. I don't think it's some kind of masonic plot to infiltrate the public school system. :P

[jade86]

I doubt it was a reference to Freemasonry any more so than it would be if they showed Peter tending a beehive (which is also a masonic symbol). He's using a compasses to draw a circle. It's what the thing is made for. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I used them in elementary school, and in high school Geometry class. I don't think it's some kind of masonic plot to infiltrate the public school system. :P

But the compass seems rather "old". He could use another one more modern :D

[Montecito]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


yeah maybe you are right..

this thread has affected us..:P we must write the word "danger-it causes addiction to theories" in the title..:D

[jade86]

I'm in love with this thread, by now! :shiny: Everytime i visit this forum, the first topic i look for is "Obsevers's Motives" :D

[Montecito]

I'm in love with this thread, by now! :shiny: Everytime i visit this forum, the first topic i look for is "Obsevers's Motives" :D

and most of the time we don't talk about the Observers or their motives..:P

[jade86]

and most of the time we don't talk about the Observers or their motives..:P

Hahahaha it's true! But always something that has to do with them :D

[parker]

The compass could simply be the tool used to draw a circle of a particular diameter when there is the absence of technology to do it. ( relating to the ZFT, this world can still operate without technology) the fact they did not use a computer might be significant. ( i feel like we are heading the direction of analyzing in frame dust particles for foreshadowing significance here. not that its bad, we are just thorough)

[Utnogrl]

Something has bothered me because the woman Rebecca, who Walter gave LSD to as a teenager, said she saw Peter glimmer as a baby, didn't she? And that would have been the OTHER Peter. So if both Peter's were special in the way we are all now thinking, it would make more sense why she saw him glimmer as a baby.

She didn't say that she saw him glimmer as a baby. Lol...she was talking straight to Peter! Why would she say that? She said she knew him as a baby or something like that. This is why when she saw Peter glimmer, it was such a reveal and a surprise to here- she didn't understand it. It had never happened before.

And she wasn't a teenager. She was an undergrad. She may have still been 18 or 19, but when you're that age, you're an adult, not a teenager.

[weiss is...]

Rebecca does not specifically say she saw Peter glimmer as a child, she does allude to it. She was stoned on LSD all the time so she probably was unsure of her own memories - until she saw Peter glimmer later that day. She wasn't surprised she looked re-affirmed. It would have been sorta awkward to suggest that someone might be from another universe, especially if you were messed up on LSD all the time...i don't, however, remember if she specified he was a baby or if he was just younger/a child.

PS - great thread, i would never come up with most of this stuff

[Utnogrl]

Rebecca does not specifically say she saw Peter glimmer as a child, she does allude to it. She was stoned on LSD all the time so she probably was unsure of her own memories - until she saw Peter glimmer later that day. She wasn't surprised she looked re-affirmed. It would have been sorta awkward to suggest that someone might be from another universe, especially if you were messed up on LSD all the time...i don't, however, remember if she specified he was a baby or if he was just younger/a child.

PS - great thread, i would never come up with most of this stuff


She was going to say a , "but...", which I'm sure was supposed to be, "but your eyes were blue", since the current Peter has green eyes. :confused0006:(Instead, the drugs started working). Even in the pilot, they made sure that we knew about the eye color. She didn't allude to seeing him glimmer. That child she knew was the Peter that dies. Both Peter's aren't from the other side. Let's not get wrapped up in that.

I've watched that scene many times and the stare that she gives is similar to the stare that Olivia gives him. Then she says, "Must be the drugs". If it was a familiar thing to her, she wouldn't have thought twice about what she saw.

I'm just wondering why she was allowed to drive so soon after the experiment!?...and with our Walter! :P

[xevious]

What a minute...


... I think we're missing the obvious. It's right in front of us, just below our noses. In the condiment rack.



The Observers' true motive is to seek out and indulge in the spiciest foods on the planet!

http://www.letseat.at/fp_images/0000/0315/Charleston_Hot_peppers_white_background.jpghttp://ranchmarketsnapavalley.com/includes/local/rmnv/images/pr/Daves%20insanity%20sauce.jpg
:shhh: :haha:

[parker]

hurry we must protect our capsaicin supplies!

[Obyron]

Tabasco is weaksauce! Tabascos are only like 5000 Scovilles. I guarantee you the Observers are going for something like Dave's Insanity Sauce, or Naga Jolokia chilis, which are the hottest chilis on earth at 1 million Scovilles. Dave's Temporary Insanity Sauce is great (~50,000 Scovilles) if you don't have the same dulled senses as the Observers. ;) I've tried regular Insanity sauce, but it's one of those things where you'd put a cap full to season an entire pot of chili, so it's hard to control the heat. The label advertises it as also being good for getting grease spots out of driveways and stripping wax floors. ;)

[The_war_is_already_on]

^ and the alt world is just after our coffee too :P

....


Yeah, no the geometry is a common theme, it ties not to the masons, but to basic geometry, and natural numbers/sacred geometry. Its in the glyphs (phi, golden spiral), walters bank vaults(fibonacci), walters notes, walternates travel device (triangle) - walters lab is built on geometric proportions....on and on and on...

So, drawing circles, especially with a compass could be related to this general theory, or at the least its connected to alt-science (torsion theory, a primarily russion alternative grand unified theory heavily intergrates geometry and shape into physically observable effects and even experiments...see my post in fringe science sub-forum for a load of links including experiments!), or an allusion to this fabulous mystery -

Trees grow branchs in phi spirals, all our limbs and features have phi ratios - something da vinci pictured in his da vinci man - and this picture is also in walters notes, shells etc - for complete unknown reasons, everything in nature conforms to a set of geometric principles than have in fact been central to esoteric/occult/ancient peoples for thousands of years - see the pyramids which are very phi ratio heavy in every single length and proportion)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number


Trust me no coincidence on the geometry references at all, the connection to these numbers, and in particular those based on phi ratios is prevelant across many episodes and many aspects of the show.

One shouldnt consider anything geometry, or even number related automatically meaningless in fringe.

......

As for sun symbollism, in fact any gold coloured flower is considered a symbol of the sun, by sunflowers are ideal...Im think the gold thing is actually pretty good, not too stretchy at all. Or at least yellow and references is even more prevelant than youd think, when you look back through...And if yellow represented what it typically does - fear and attraction, rather than what gold represents, it would be less meaningful IMO for the shows use of the color, than if we consider the colour gold.

And the first times we saw it, it was motes of light on peter, and the sun glowing magickally behind olivias head - or at least beyond simply yellow objects - and both those are more gold than yellow. I mean what is a yellow glow? its gold...And we have actually be given a picture of a gold aura on a saint in one episode, and the first major use of olivias powers showed the sun between the towers, and then shining behind her head with a magickal type glow.....

That aint yellow symbollism, its sun symbollism ie gold. (as is the link to mental powers, ie cortixiphan!). Gold is a much clearer and better fitting symbollism for how it is used IMO, and thus any sun symbollism or aura symbollism becomes related. Its interesting to note that gold also connects to scientific attainment (coffee in the alt with mum, jacksonville classroom both are yellow/gold moments), and, as relates to olivia, purity of heart/soul. Peters coin is gold as well, that was noted in the dialogue at some point. So it has fit on some levels perhaps also, as a dramatic allusion.

Yellow my arse :P

Incidently, like the shell, and golden spiral, sunflowers are clear simple perfect examples of sacred geometry...

So its not only a gold/sun thing, but one with phi proportions displayed very obviously.

However,
.....



.....


The kayaks, well, beyond the symbols/words on it, here Im not so sure. There are certainly many travel/exploration things - zeno transit, doorways, planes, etc......That could be the allusion there, discovery, or the desire to explore/adventure...? If it is an allusion. And it could always link in to some actual event in olivias life.......so, yeah.....




....



Theres plenty of wild speculation on possible plots in here I admit, but im sure the overall references, philosophies, points of science/nature/history and other easter eggs are very delibrate in message and the thoughts they provoke - because they relate to symbols, people, ideas in a less than random manner...(whether it be the monarch butterfly in the glyphs and that other episode or whatever)......As to what that might mean to the plot....I think some of the dialogue in the show might be suggestive, certainly the clue "prophecy" on the paper shown to peter in theres more than one of everything etc is pretty damn clear, but much remains to be seen what they might do exactly with these smaller clues or more obscure to understand clues, if they are part of the main mystery arcs. In fact even if all this speculation were true, thered still be a lot of unknowns and mysteries left :P

What I do know is that the writers put symbollism and such in there, and that these have comprehensible meanings and points for researching, even if its not plot - and delving into mystery like this, in this fashion, is like some kind of magickal mystery theorist crack cocaine for people like me, just asking the questions and looking for possible answers :P :P Walter would be proud:

"This is wonderful. Don't you agree? It's just like a good detective movie." - Walter

:D

[Mutsie]

^ and the alt world is just after our coffee too :P

....



That's what I figured tooo!!!
&
If the observers want to try reallll hot sauce they should go to Asia and try the real hot "Sambal Ulek or Sambal Setan" Those are really hot....!

:D

:observer::tiphat:

[The_war_is_already_on]

Why dont the just drink a isolated extract??

Ohhh, damn youve given me another theory..

Hey, heres a thought -maybe chillis are to them, for time travel, as the sunscreen and sickness tablets are to jones for the teleporter? A counter side effect measure of some kind....

Hmmmm, thats thought provoking, because it means they might be using some kinda tech, or science means, rather than "exsting outside the timeline"???

[xevious]

Tabasco is weaksauce! Tabascos are only like 5000 Scovilles. I guarantee you the Observers are going for something like Dave's Insanity Sauce, or Naga Jolokia chilis, which are the hottest chilis on earth at 1 million Scovilles. Dave's Temporary Insanity Sauce is great (~50,000 Scovilles) if you don't have the same dulled senses as the Observers. ;) I've tried regular Insanity sauce, but it's one of those things where you'd put a cap full to season an entire pot of chili, so it's hard to control the heat. The label advertises it as also being good for getting grease spots out of driveways and stripping wax floors. ;)

Yeah, I just thought Tabasco would be known to most people, but I'd never heard of Dave's Temporary Insanity Sauce--post edited accordingly! :haha:

Here's another that spicier than Tabasco and probably a bit more palatable than Dave's:
http://www.sammcgees.com/img/1791/ass-kickin-moonshine-mash-hot-sauce_1_std.jpg

[xevious]

The kayaks, well, beyond the symbols/words on it, here Im not so sure. There are certainly many travel/exploration things - zeno transit, doorways, planes, etc......That could be the allusion there, discovery, or the desire to explore/adventure...? If it is an allusion. And it could always link in to some actual event in olivias life.......so, yeah.....

I suspect kayaks represent natural mobility. They're extremely agile and fast human powered water craft, capable of navigating difficult rapids or cruising across broad lakes. Olivia's abilities have certainly taken her to some very interesting places.

[jade86]

Oooooooohhhhhhh :shiny:

http://a.imagehost.org/0597/peter.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0597/peter)http://j.imagehost.org/0035/09Leonard.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0035/09Leonard)

[The_war_is_already_on]

^Thats a good one :) Da vinci's man is in walters notes, and ties into the whole natural sacred geometry things....(golden ration/spiral)...

The machine does seem to even have the circle.....they do look similar!

You know, peter looks as cheesed off sitting in that thing, as he did having to look after walter in season 1! :P


Oh, hey I noticed something there....those buildings in the background there....

They look pretty darn weird, like futuristic sorta, but maybe just modern buildings with holes in em ?(they definately have holes for whatever reason)

......

According to walters notes I was reading today, from there is more than one of everything, he says something about the man who designed his lab figured out the geometry......and finally clicking on to something at the centre the golden spiral in his lab, where the tank used to be....a hole in reality, and a hole in his heart.....Facinating like many of walters notes in season 1 as far as clues, especially golden ratio stuff and old mythology...

Insane ramblings obviously in part, but its interesting to muse. maybe thats part of how they reached the other side, via geometry...and I wonder what it was walter found there...?

[jade86]

Hummmm....in effects the buildings remind me the cities from "Drangonball" :P
I didn't notice before, beacuse the only first thing i saw was a burnt town. You could be right ;)

[jade86]

I like this scene:

http://a.imagehost.org/t/0360/2x21_0673.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0360/2x21_0673) http://j.imagehost.org/t/0178/2x21_0676.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0178/2x21_0676)

The sun lights up Peter's face (and eyes too).

Sun > yellow > gold :D

[Montecito]

There will be a movie called Iron Sky..

io9.com says:

"Remember this "Nazis on the Moon" movie? They're still forging ahead with filming, and now they're in Australia, doing some filming. Apparently there are tons of stunts, some of which take place in Lunar gravity or in zero-G. And there are some set pieces that revolve around artificial gravity being turned off. The main character, Renate, has long blonde hair, and it's going to need to move realistically in zero-G. Here's a floor plan of the Lunar Nazi base":
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2010/06/500x_4693015574_6153a688de_b.jpg

i thought it worthed mentioned here..:P

[xevious]

[QUOTE=jade86;187962]

http://a.imagehost.org/0597/peter.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0597/peter)

Hmmmmm... this looks a little familiar:

http://truebelievers.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/suits-up-02.jpg

;)

[jade86]

[QUOTE=jade86;187962]

http://a.imagehost.org/0597/peter.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0597/peter)

Hmmmmm... this looks a little familiar:

http://truebelievers.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/suits-up-02.jpg

;)

Oh my god!! Which film is that??? :confused0066:

[miley]

Hmmmmm... this looks a little familiar:
http://truebelievers.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/suits-up-02.jpg

;)

LOLOLOLOL @ suggesting that Peter is Iron Man :P :haha: :D

[jade86]

I read the plot...There are some some points connected to Peter. For example, the protagonist enroled at MIT; he has been captured by the lord of the war (walternate! :P); he has an artificial heart (like Peter's in "brown betty", but could be related to his blood or DNA); he gives life to the machine....


[/URL]

[URL="http://h.imagehost.org/view/0620/2x22_0297"] (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0742/06b_20Justice_20League_1)

[Montecito]

I read the plot...There are some some points connected to Peter. For example, the protagonist enroled at MIT; he has been captured by the lord of the war (walternate! :P); he has an artificial heart (like Peter's in "brown betty", but could be related to his blood or DNA); he gives life to the machine....
And then...

Isn't he Iron Man?


YouTube- Iron Man-Black Sabbath-Lyrics Included (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LjbMVXj0F8)

[xevious]

Yeah, I couldn't get over how similar the Iron Man suit adornment machine is to that Fringe machine drawing. :haha:

[jade86]

Did you notice Observers's clothes? It's 40's style. In those years there was the World War II. Then...

World War II --> Germany --> Nazi/Hitler --> Atlantis/Agharti

According to a piece of Agharti's story:".. the last time that they broke their tendency not to intervene was during World War II, when a group of a few northern aliens (a kind of fifth column of ex Atlantidei which have never accepted the loss of the domain on the planet) [in Fringe, these rebel aliens could be people like "Rogue"] contacted Hitler giving him helps and precise orders, up to deliver him some flying disks to be replied with retro-engineering, in order to have a northern planet to be governed through their puppet. The worst thing was that the Nazis used the holy emblem to Shamballa/Agharta: swastika.[in this case it could be Peter's prophecy]
This emblem represents from always the "King of the World" who lives in the subsoil, symbol of positiveness and radiant energy.
The Aghartianis [Observers?] intervened to their way, seeing that the big German war supremacy - tied to "external" helps from the fifth northern column - was somehow "compensated" by a series of circumstances, events and positive people. And the fates of the War have returned in equilibrium".

Then:

The Observers, together with some technologies, emerged in an occasion in which the Nazis tried to reach one of these underground kingdoms. Part of rebel people from that kingdom, like Rogue, helped the Nazis with those advanced technologies and maybe the prophecy, too. But the prophecy (and especially Peter) was too precious for the Observers to let the nazis used it for their purposes (they intended to win the second world war), so they tried to solve the problem through a series of events that, at this point, would have changed the result of the World War II (in the AU, of course :D).
We saw that the Observers have chenged the course of events only if was involved someone/something too important for them (in this case Peter), then all this explanation would be right.

[jade86]

About the Observer's writing posted by The_war_is_already_on...
We saw that writing is alchemical, and also connected to zodiac. In "Brown Betty" the observers's name are related to that.

Zodiac ---> planets

And there are solar systems in Peternate's room! :D

http://a.imagehost.org/0271/peter1.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0271/peter1)

This could have to do with the "Big Architect of the Universe" (Freemasonry) too, attributed to Peter :confused0006:

[jade86]

In Atlantis, astrology was one of the consolidated disciplines and was practised besides Yoga, Qi Gong, acupuncture, Tai Chi, psychology, etc...

Qi Gong is a practice tied to medicine but also to the martial arts, and it can be practised with relaxed body or in movement and to foresee setted movements or no.

Tai Chi is instead an ancient Chinese martial art, used as system of self-defence.

Peter doesn't know martial arts, right? :P
He and the Observers aren't able to foresee the movements, right? :P

[Montecito]

In Atlantis, astrology was one of the consolidated disciplines and was practised besides Yoga, Qi Gong, acupuncture, Tai Chi, psychology, etc...


i don't think we know for sure what was studied in Atlantis if Atlantis really existed..

Atlantis maybe it was a myth that Socrated used in his teaching..

Or it was a historical fact that Socrates mentioned..

we can't know for sure..

[Obyron]

This could have to do with the "Big Architect of the Universe" (Freemasonry) too, attributed to Peter :confused0006:

The Great Architect of the Universe is just a phrase to refer to god without picking one by name. Because Freemasonry is not a religious organization, and accepts members of all different religions, we try to use phrases that are respectful of all religious beliefs while still getting the point across. It's also necessary because in some faiths it's considered disrespectful to take the name of their deity in vain; similar to how a lot of oaths of office and such use the phrase "swear or affirm," since some faiths forbid their members from swearing oaths. Sort of like how the Declaration of Independence uses the phrase "endowed by their Creator" instead of "endowed by God." As far as I know, the phrase comes from Thomas Aquinas.

So I guess I doubt that Peter is the Great Architect of the Universe. :P

[Montecito]

Freemasonry accepts members of all different religions

just for the record both the Catholic and Orthodox Church has said that the Freemasonry is against Christianity..

[Obyron]

Your anti-masonic bias is quite clear, yes. :) We accept Catholics, however some Catholics choose not to join us. I actually spoke to a Benedictine nun about this very thing. She told me that that's a very very old papal bull (or encyclical or something; who can keep them all straight?), and while it is still in force, it's not enforced (pun intended). She said it's a matter of conscience for Catholics to decide if a group they're going to associate with is "proper" and that it's between you and god. For the record though, this was in a pretty liberal Diocese. If you're in a place that yearns for the pre-Vatican II days or something, you'll probably take some guff for it-- not from the Freemasons, but from the church. :)

The problem the Catholic church has with Freemasonry is precisely that we allow people of all faiths, and use vague language like "Great Architect of the Universe" instead of asserting that there is one true god and that everyone else is going to hell. :) So instead they ripped off Freemasonry (specifically the York Rite chivalric degrees) to create the Knights of Columbus.

In general, churches dislike the ideas of moral philosophy being discussed in non-religious settings, and without specific platitudes being made toward their dogma. Corporations always hate losing market share. ;) No clue about the Orthodox church, because there's not a lot of that where I lived in the states, but I'd imagine it's a similar rationale.

An interesting quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia page discussing Freemasonry:



Gregory XVI similarly declares that the calamities of the age were due principally to the conspiracy of secret societies, and like Leo XII, deplores the religious indifferentism and the false ideas of tolerance propagated by secret societies.Gotta love the phrase "false ideas of tolerance." ;) It's also worth noting that a lot of these early 19th century condemnations of secret societies sprung from a sort of conservative Catholic counter-revolution to the Enlightenment in Europe, which was sort of a new golden age of philosophy and education. A lot of "secret societies" organized specifically to discuss such ideas free from persecution from the church, which, to put it politely, has not always been overly kind to intellectuals, natural scientists, and philosophers. :)

[The_war_is_already_on]

I really like your Agharti/ Nazi connection. Actually Agharti fits the observers very well, in terms of their motive/role, and the underground thing. I havent read up on it yet, but Agharti will be my next point of research I think, cheers! :D

[jade86]

I really like your Agharti/ Nazi connection. Actually Agharti fits the observers very well, in terms of their motive/role, and the underground thing. I havent read up on it yet, but Agharti will be my next point of research I think, cheers! :D

Yeah! :D
And what do you think about solar systems in Peternate's room?

[The_war_is_already_on]

I dont know really. It could be a hint, or it could be the sort of thing a scientist puts in his sons bedroom. But given the observer writing etc, there very well could be more to that......Personally i liked noticing it either way :D

[Montecito]

Your anti-masonic bias is quite clear, yes. :) We accept Catholics, however some Catholics choose not to join us. I actually spoke to a Benedictine nun about this very thing. She told me that that's a very very old papal bull (or encyclical or something; who can keep them all straight?), and while it is still in force, it's not enforced (pun intended). She said it's a matter of conscience for Catholics to decide if a group they're going to associate with is "proper" and that it's between you and god. For the record though, this was in a pretty liberal Diocese. If you're in a place that yearns for the pre-Vatican II days or something, you'll probably take some guff for it-- not from the Freemasons, but from the church. :)

The problem the Catholic church has with Freemasonry is precisely that we allow people of all faiths, and use vague language like "Great Architect of the Universe" instead of asserting that there is one true god and that everyone else is going to hell. :) So instead they ripped off Freemasonry (specifically the York Rite chivalric degrees) to create the Knights of Columbus.


^this is not true

In 1983, the Church issued a new Code of Canon Law. Unlike its predecessor, it did not explicitly name Masonic orders among the secret societies it condemns. It states in part: "A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict."

This omission caused both Catholics and Freemasons to believe that the ban on Catholics becoming Freemasons may have been lifted, especially after the perceived liberalisation of Vatican II.[69]

However, the matter was clarified when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI), as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, issued Quaesitum est, which states: "... the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion." Thus, from a Catholic perspective, there is still a ban on Catholics joining Masonic Lodges

[Obyron]

Well, the lady ran the Diocese RCIA program, and she's a Benedictine nun, so I'm going to take her word for it. I guarantee she knows more about canon law than I do. :P That fits pretty well with what I'd imagine their reactions to be. The reasons I state for the ban are accurate though, as they're pretty much cribbed word for word from Clement XII's In Eminenti. His rationale for the ban was literally, "If they were not evil, they would not need to keep secrets." That's an awful lot like defending warrantless wiretapping because, "If you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing to hide." Like I said, we have no problem with Catholics, they have a problem with us.

It amuses me that they think we're plotting against the church (which is a blatant falsehood-- there are rules against even discussing religion or politics in lodges, because it's disrespectful toward people who have different views, in the event they're in the minority and don't feel comfortable speaking up). With all the drama you hear coming out of the church these days and the Vatican hem-hawing and doing nothing about it, you don't have to look much further for enemies of the faith than their own priesthood. They seem to be doing a better job of destroying the church than any imagined enemy ever did.

We need to make a thread over in the Community Discussion forum for this stuff so that every time you get a bee in your bonnet about Freemasons we don't have to derail the whole thread. :)

[Montecito]

there are rules against even discussing religion or politics in lodges

..so what do you discuss in a secret society lodge which is filled with symbols of mysticism & religions? music, cinema & sports?:P

i think that most people join the masons to get connections for political & financial power..

[Obyron]

The same things most fraternities discuss. Plans for upcoming events, discussing members who are sick, applications for new membership, lists of people who haven't paid dues for the year, communications from Grand Lodge (which are usually about as exciting as reading the phone book). If you have new members going through, you'll schedule a date to do degree work. Every now and then you'll have what's called a Lodge of Instruction where you'll educate members about the history of the fraternity, or you'll practice degree work since it's all supposed to be performed from memory. Typically you'll also have dinner at the meetings, which is when guys actually do discuss sports, the news, movies, stuff in the community, family news, whatever.

If we were out for world conquest I think we'd need to meet more than once or twice a month, and the meetings would be a lot longer. ;)

Also, the only religious symbol in most lodges is the Volume of Sacred Law. In most places it's a bible, but it can be whatever is appropriate for the culture of the lodge (ie: a lodge in Tel Aviv might use a Torah, or a Tanakh), and new members can be sworn in on whatever book they find appropriate.

The mysticism elements aren't as pronounced as people seem to think. :) If you're seriously that curious, you can find pretty much every "secret" of Freemasonry online, complete with descriptions of handshakes, words, whatever. The problem is that people read that, and refuse to believe that's all there is to it, and that there must be something more that we're hiding or something.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who join to make connections, which is... pretty much the point of any group. Getting like-minded people together. I like that if I'm ever stranded in some hole in the wall out of the way place, there are people I know I can call to get help if I'm in a bind, and that these people would extend that same help to anyone who asked for it, not just masons. It's kind of sad when people are that distrustful of kindness. ie: Masons in the US alone give over 1.4 million dollars per day to charity. The Shriners Hospitals for Children are funded by a 5 billion dollar endowment, based mostly on donations and dues from members (with the rest coming from group fundraisers like Shriners Circuses, and being left to the Shrine in members wills). There was a member at my lodge in the states who first wanted to become a Mason because he was born with a spinal defect, and is only even able to walk because he got free care in a Shriners hospital. The York Rite runs programs to help pay for surgery and medical care for needy people with hearing and vision problems (the Royal Arch Auditory Research Assistance Program, and the Knight Templar Eye Foundation). The Scottish Rite has over 100 clinics or programs at hospitals dedicated to helping children with learning disabilities.

I'll take the good that I know for a fact from first hand experience that we do over the stupid rumors of conspiracy theorists who maybe need to get out more about the secret evil they can't prove. What's more likely? We're a bunch of slightly dorky fraternity guys who like to get together to have fun and meet new people, to have an excuse for a boys' night out, and do stuff in the community along the way and help raise money for charity; or that we're a centuries old secret conspiracy who only do good things to cover up the fact that we're worshiping demons and plotting to overthrow the Catholic Church?

Can we drop this now? Or at least make a new thread for it somewhere that it's actually relevant?

[parker]

I second it, can you guys drop it or find a new thread, so we all can get back to observer motives.

I think the planet posters and what not in peter's B side room were exactly that. Just posters and mobiles, what an average boy that age would have, especially if your dad is a scientist.

[jade86]

I second it, can you guys drop it or find a new thread, so we all can get back to observer motives.

I think the planet posters and what not in peter's B side room were exactly that. Just posters and mobiles, what an average boy that age would have, especially if your dad is a scientist.

I agree :P

[jade86]

Speaking of yellow... :confused0066:

http://a.imagehost.org/0737/vlcsnap215981.png (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0737/vlcsnap215981)

[parker]

Good eye jade. I wonder what it means and which peter that is.

[jade86]

Good eye jade. I wonder what it means and which peter that is.

Peternate of course :P

[jade86]

Maybe i discovered another clue, speaking of Peter and the Observers.
We know that Peter drinks a lot of coffee, right?
Now...Look at these 2 scenes from the espisode "August."

http://h.imagehost.org/t/0105/caff.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0105/caff) http://h.imagehost.org/t/0770/caff_2.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0770/caff_2)

If you enlarge the first image you will realize that the observer drinks a brown steaming drink, kept in a coffee thermos that I have underlined in the second image.
At the beginning I thought that it could not be such an important clue, but then i remembered this scene.

http://h.imagehost.org/t/0680/2x21_0742.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0680/2x21_0742)

Alt-Elizabeth that pours the coffee (contained in a yellow coffeepot) in yellow cups! Yellow and the coffee have a lot of importance in the parallel universe. The coffee in fact it's a drink in extinction, and therefore considered something of "unique"/"rare"/"precious", it's poured in this completely yellow set that can be associated to the world of the Observers / First People and therefore also to the gold, that had an enormous symbolic value for the ancient civilizations.

I tried to find something about a possible connection between coffee and tribal populations, but i only read that Mayas used coffee beans as medium of exchange.

[Montecito]

I tried to find something about a possible connection between coffee and tribal populations, but i only read that Mayas used coffee beans as medium of exchange.

i found this in wikipedia:
The Oromo people would customarily plant a coffee tree on the graves of powerful sorcerers. They believed that the first coffee bush sprang up from the tears that the god of heaven shed over the corpse of a dead sorcerer.

[jade86]

i found this in wikipedia:
The Oromo people would customarily plant a coffee tree on the graves of powerful sorcerers. They believed that the first coffee bush sprang up from the tears that the god of heaven shed over the corpse of a dead sorcerer.

Interesting! ;)

[jade86]

O____O

Maybe i found the yellow drink that walternate and peter drank: MEAD.

http://a.imagehost.org/t/0134/normal_Fringe222_145.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0134/normal_Fringe222_145) http://a.imagehost.org/t/0607/430px-Met_Flasche_und_Glas.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0607/430px-Met_Flasche_und_Glas)

You have to read its meaning!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead)

"The mead is the most ancient alcoholic drink produced by the man. Egyptians, Celti, Greek, Romans and German made use of it, as appreciated and refined drink of the symposium of the principles, and during the sacred ceremonies.In the Indo-European mythology it's the typical drink of immortality, in the Celtic world as in that Germanic, to be defined from these people "drink of Gods"".

[empty_encounters]

It makes me so happy that I made a productive thread.

[jade86]

It makes me so happy that I made a productive thread.

Indeed! :D :happy15:

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

So, in an effort to make my own Horsey Sauce (which is a horseradish/mayo mix you get in packets from Arby's here in the US-- I know, I'm weird:D), I came upon the Wiki article for horseradish. Here's what kind of struck me as interesting and actually relates to this thread:

"According to Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), the Delphic Oracle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_Oracle) told Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo) that the horseradish was worth its weight in gold." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseradish#cite_note-0)

It was horseradish that Walter used in What Lies Below to find the cure for the virus and Peter. And another reference to Gold and even Greek mythology where the Atlantis story comes from!


It makes me so happy that I made a productive thread.I'm also glad you made such a productive thread!!:happy15::happy15:

[jade86]

So, in an effort to make my own Horsey Sauce (which is a horseradish/mayo mix you get in packets from Arby's here in the US-- I know, I'm weird:D), I came upon the Wiki article for horseradish. Here's what kind of struck me as interesting and actually relates to this thread:

"According to Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), the Delphic Oracle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_Oracle) told Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo) that the horseradish was worth its weight in gold." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseradish#cite_note-0)

It was horseradish that Walter used in What Lies Below to find the cure for the virus and Peter. And another reference to Gold and even Greek mythology where the Atlantis story comes from!


Oooooooohhhhhh.....Great job FlyingSpaghettiMonster!! (can i call you "spaghetti"? :D)
If you remember, that virus was 75.000 years old and came from the subsoil like the beacon and probably the observers and underground kingdoms like Atlantis or Agharti. Maybe here's why (accorgind to the greek mythology) the horseradish was the only cure for the virus :confused0006:

Look at Apollo's character. There's something in common with Peter.
Here's a piece from Wiki page:

Apollo was one of the most important and diverse of the TWELVE Olympian deities (http://fringe-forum.com/wiki/Twelve_Olympians) (twelve...:confused0066:). He has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun (when rebecca saw the glow around Peter's head in "momentum deferred" there was the sun behind him; or the sun that lighted up Peter's face while he was sleeping in "over there part 1" :D); truth and prophecy; music...(peter plays piano and guitar :D)

Did you notice Alt-Elizabeth features? She looks like an ancient greek woman, especially in "over there" :)

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

Oooooooohhhhhh.....Great job FlyingSpaghettiMonster!! (can i call you "spaghetti"? :D)

as a deity, the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be addressed by its full name, but since I'm not a deity you can call me whatever ya like!:haha:



Look at Apollo's character. There's something in common with Peter.
Here's a piece from Wiki page:

Apollo was one of the most important and diverse of the TWELVE Olympian deities (http://fringe-forum.com/wiki/Twelve_Olympians) (twelve...:confused0066:). He has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun (when rebecca saw the glow around Peter's head in "momentum deferred" there was the sun behind him; or the sun that lighted up Peter's face while he was sleeping in "over there part 1" :D); truth and prophecy; music...(peter plays piano and guitar :D)

Did you notice Alt-Elizabeth features? She looks like an ancient greek woman, especially in "over there" :)
Oh, all of these connections to Atlantis/mythology are very exciting! So are they insinuating that maybe Peter is the sun god? Are the cortexi-kids all reincarnations of greek gods in modern day times? And an observer for each of them to ensure they 'make it'?

[jade86]

I'm formulating another theory. It's possible that Peter is the "chosen one" among the observers. If the observers are 12 and are named as the months of the year and the signs of zodiac, the same thing is perhaps about Peter. The authors have engraved on Peter's grave the same year of birth of Josh (1978), and josh was born on June 11, so his sign is Gemini. It's possible that Peter is June (or Gemini) among the Observers. If you read the profile of that sign, you will realize that it corresponds exactly to peter's character! I have made some searches about that sign and I have discovered very interesting things.

GEMINI

- Dominant planet: Mercury
- The Sun transites in Gemini since May 22 to June 21
- Color: yellow, that reflects the vivacity of the Gemini
- Metal: Mercury

(Is that Moon.....or Mercury? It's like the prospect of solar system was seen from that planet signed in red. If it was Mercury, could it have to do with Peter?)

http://h.imagehost.org/0134/normal_Fringe215_583.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0134/normal_Fringe215_583)

GEMINI - PERSONALITY PROFILE

http://www.mysticalblaze.com/AstrologyGemini.htm (it's peter!)

MERCURY (ELEMENT)

"Mercury was already known in ancient times in China and India, and it was found in graves of ancient Egypt dated back to 1500 AC. In China, India and Tibet people believed that the mercury prolonged the life, cured the fractures a helped to preserve the good health.
For the alchemists the mercury was often seen as one of the primordial elements that form the matter; the Hindu word for "alchemy" means "the street of the mercury"; they believed that changing the kind of sulphur, the mercury could be transformed in any other metal, especially the gold."

MERCURY: TOXICITY

"In the modern age, the toxicity of the mercury and its harmful effects on the health of mind became clear particularly in England during the '800, when mental disorders spread among the hats manufacturer, that used great quantities of that element to work the felt. The diffusion of such symptoms inspired the writer and mathematician Lewis Carroll about the ideation of the character of Crazy Hatter, made famous by the novel "Alice in Wonderland"."

That reminds me Walter, when he (the Crazy Hatter?) went crazy probably because of Peter (the mercury?).

MERCURY: PLANET

"It's the nexter planet to the Sun, and already know to the ancient populations like Egyptians, Chinese, Sumeri (third millennium B.C.). The Greeks assigned two names to Mercury: Apollo (i talked about him in the previous post), the star of the morning, and Hermes, the star of the evening."




Here is another different theory about the Observers.

In "the arrival", Walter says that the beacon is made with iridium.

I read an interesting thing about Dinosaurs's extinction.
There's a theory (you'll find it on different sites), according to witch the misterious dead of dinosaurs was caused by the impact of an iridium meteor.

Maybe in "fringe" that meteor not only killed the dinosaurs (here's why peter likes dinosaurs?) reached the subsoil and since then the "world" of the observers was formed. Then they built the beacon :confused0006:

[parker]

That's a good point FSM < what I call you cuz I'm a lazy typer and a crap speller.

That would be interesting, since each of the cortexi kids thus far seem to have a different power.

and interesting thoughts Jade, I'm still on the fence about the posters in Peters room as a boy on the B side. Part of me wants to believe the other part of me thinks it just what an 8 year old boy would have in his room, especially if his dad is a scientist.

[Montecito]

I'm formulating another theory. It's possible that Peter is the "chosen one" among the observers. If the observers are 12 and are named as the months of the year and the signs of zodiac, the same thing is perhaps about Peter. The authors have engraved on Peter's grave the same year of birth of Josh (1978), and josh was born on June 11, so his sign is Gemini. It's possible that Peter is June (or Gemini) among the Observers. If you read the profile of that sign, you will realize that it corresponds exactly to peter's character! I have made some searches about that sign and I have discovered very interesting things.

GEMINI

- Dominant planet: Mercury
- The Sun transites in Gemini since May 22 to June 21
- Color: yellow, that reflects the vivacity of the Gemini
- Metal: Mercury

(Is that Moon.....or Mercury? It's like the prospect of solar system was seen from that planet signed in red. If it was Mercury, could it have to do with Peter?)

http://h.imagehost.org/0134/normal_Fringe215_583.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0134/normal_Fringe215_583)

GEMINI - PERSONALITY PROFILE

http://www.mysticalblaze.com/AstrologyGemini.htm (it's peter!)

MERCURY (ELEMENT)

"Mercury was already known in ancient times in China and India, and it was found in graves of ancient Egypt dated back to 1500 AC. In China, India and Tibet people believed that the mercury prolonged the life, cured the fractures a helped to preserve the good health.
For the alchemists the mercury was often seen as one of the primordial elements that form the matter; the Hindu word for "alchemy" means "the street of the mercury"; they believed that changing the kind of sulphur, the mercury could be transformed in any other metal, especially the gold."

MERCURY: TOXICITY

"In the modern age, the toxicity of the mercury and its harmful effects on the health of mind became clear particularly in England during the '800, when mental disorders spread among the hats manufacturer, that used great quantities of that element to work the felt. The diffusion of such symptoms inspired the writer and mathematician Lewis Carroll about the ideation of the character of Crazy Hatter, made famous by the novel "Alice in Wonderland"."

That reminds me Walter, when he (the Crazy Hatter?) went crazy probably because of Peter (the mercury?).

MERCURY: PLANET

"It's the nexter planet to the Sun, and already know to the ancient populations like Egyptians, Chinese, Sumeri (third millennium B.C.). The Greeks assigned two names to Mercury: Apollo (i talked about him in the previous post), the star of the morning, and Hermes, the star of the evening."




Here is another different theory about the Observers.

In "the arrival", Walter says that the beacon is made with iridium.

I read an interesting thing about Dinosaurs's extinction.
There's a theory (you'll find it on different sites), according to witch the misterious dead of dinosaurs was caused by the impact of an iridium meteor.

Maybe in "fringe" that meteor not only killed the dinosaurs (here's why peter likes dinosaurs?) reached the subsoil and since then the "world" of the observers was formed. Then they built the beacon :confused0006:

^this was a very interesting post..

i don't know if your theory is true or false but it was very interesting and fun to read..

[jade86]

^this was a very interesting post..

i don't know if your theory is true or false but it was very interesting and fun to read..

They are all informations i found in Internet :D
I'm glad you like this theory :)

[jade86]

and interesting thoughts Jade, I'm still on the fence about the posters in Peters room as a boy on the B side. Part of me wants to believe the other part of me thinks it just what an 8 year old boy would have in his room, especially if his dad is a scientist.

Dear parker, if there's a thing that i learned from Fringe is that coincidences don't exist :D

[The_war_is_already_on]

I really like the gemini/june/mercury link actually. I think Peter is gemini to the letter in terms of his character, loyal, yet sometimes fickle, dual natured.

Oh, how many glyphs are there, by the way? I was wondering if that number might connect to anything too.

[parker]

Dear parker, if there's a thing that i learned from Fringe is that coincidences don't exist :D


good point,

[jade86]

About the episode "the arrival", look at this scene with peter and rogue.
What colour are the light bulbs and the reflectors? :D

http://a.imagehost.org/0067/fringe104-589.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0067/fringe104-589)

Read this small part from the conversation between Walter and Olivia, after Rogue kidnapped Peter:

OLIVIA: This was taken outside of your lab. (shows photo of Mosley) Have you ever seen this man before?
WALTER: I don't believe so, no. Something's happened, yes? Something unfortunate. What is it?
OLIVIA: I believe this man may have abducted Peter.
WALTER: That's not - no. Peter will lead him to it.
OLIVIA: To what? The cylinder? How? Did you tell him where you put it?
WALTER: No, of course not. I don't need to.

And then, at the end of the episode:

PETER: How did I know that, Walter? I didn't know that. I didn't know where the cylinder was buried.
WALTER: You know it, son, because I know it.
PETER: No, I didn't know because you didn't tell me.
WALTER: I didn't have to. You must adjust the way you consider communications, ideas. Ideas can be absorbed through osmosis. Through proximity.

What if Peter unconsciously showed some of the Observer's ability, the mind reading? It's possible that Peter was able to read Walter's mind, so he knew where the beacon was. Here's why the "rougue" kidnapped him?
I'm also sure that Walter knew the beacon had to do with Peter and that dangerous people like rougue were looking for it.
But, who are those people?
In the episode "the ghost network", walter said that he believed to have seen that guy already.

[The_war_is_already_on]

I think the rogues, and other disconnected groups related to the observers are our best chance of working out what they want.

Why did the rogue want to get the beacon? What is the timeline/events the observers are aiming for? There is a goal, and its opposition, but its still muddy as a puddle.

I too, find myself, muddling over "the arrival" hoping for some enlightening moment.....

[jade86]

I was forgetting another possible clue, about Peter/Observers, to share with you.

http://a.imagehost.org/t/0182/normal_Fringe208-0102.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0182/normal_Fringe208-0102) http://h.imagehost.org/t/0224/Immagine_5.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0224/Immagine_5)

- First pic from "August": the Observer starts the car with his thumb.
- Second pic from "Brown Betty": Peter uses his thumb to open the "futuristic" suitcase with his heart

Same energy? :shiny:

http://a.imagehost.org/t/0182/normal_Fringe208-0102.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0182/normal_Fringe208-0102) http://a.imagehost.org/t/0140/cuore.jpg (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0140/cuore)

[The_war_is_already_on]

Nice find!!! :)

Go the brown betty theories, its like an unopened christmas present! :P (like the one that your really annoyed to have got, but somehow grows on you after the day!)

[Peet]

According to Greek mythology, the Delphic Oracle told Apollo that the horseradish was worth its weight in gold.

Yeah, and radishes are worth their weight in lead, and beetroots their weight in silver. :p I always thought that was so funny :haha:



Oh, all of these connections to Atlantis/mythology are very exciting! So are they insinuating that maybe Peter is the sun god? Are the cortexi-kids all reincarnations of greek gods in modern day times? And an observer for each of them to ensure they 'make it'?

It's an interesting idea. Twelve observers for the "Big Twelve". Who would they all be?

Nancy Lewis, the fire starter, who would she be? Hephaestos, god of fire and blacksmiths and stuff? Or possibly Hestia, goddess of the Hearth, although she isn't generally counted as part of the Big Twelve.

Nick Lane, emotions. Aphrodite? Doesn't really seem to fit him. Dionysus could induce or inspire madness. Maybe that fits better.

James Heath, cancer touch. I'm thinking Hades :haha:

Olivia - I think she fits Athena. Wise and a warrior.


Are those all the cotexi-kids whose powers we know of?

[jade86]

I agree with you , the_war_is_already_on :P

Ok...ehm....
Speaking of the famous agreement in "the cure", Nina said that Perù is reach of a particular kind of metal.
I found out that from the mines in Huancavelica (Perù), are extracted great deals of mercury!
It's curious, isn't it?
But this time i don't know if it could mean something or have something to do with the observers/peter/gemini/mercury theory :what:

[The_war_is_already_on]

Nick Lane = Dionysis. Nice pick :)

Olivia = Athena, maybe even the justice god. But Athena is perfect fit. There a purity there, like peter has his purity.

James could be Hel, or even a healing god.

Peter could be hermes.

........


And what about egyptian mythology? :D

Olivia could be Isis, and Walter Thoth, and peter Horus?

There's something of a classic myth in here, even if its not intentional!

Something I wonder, totally OT, is how many cortixi kids has ZFT already activated and recruited for the war? MD and "our side" is only getting started......They must have at least a few key actives already in service.....

...

Hmmm, the mercury link is suspiciously occult there....Peter, shapeshifters, peru. Its almost like you have some "triangulation" on that one! :P

[jade86]

Peter could be a mix of Hermes and Apollo :D

[jade86]

Hmmm, the mercury link is suspiciously occult there....Peter, shapeshifters, peru. Its almost like you have some "triangulation" on that one! :P

Yeah...
I wasn't able to find further information about that :P

[The_war_is_already_on]

That would make him a message bearer, or someone knowledgable. If so, whats the message? :D

[Peet]

The message is..... ORDERS ARE: KILL PETER AND WALTER BISHOP!

Maybe Peter is just a message carrier between the two universes or something... I don't know. :confused0006:


"In the modern age, the toxicity of the mercury and its harmful effects on the health of mind became clear particularly in England during the '800, when mental disorders spread among the hats manufacturer, that used great quantities of that element to work the felt. The diffusion of such symptoms inspired the writer and mathematician Lewis Carroll about the ideation of the character of Crazy Hatter, made famous by the novel "Alice in Wonderland"."

Was just reading this and had the sudden, disturbing image of Walter and Walternate as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. :haha: :haha: :p

[jade86]

The prophecy! :D
Apollo was the God of prophecy, able to reveal people's future ;)

[The_war_is_already_on]

I know, almost no one will get this, but back in the day of battlestar galacttica we would theorise until the moon broke the spell. :) A bit like us all now........One of my favourite times was when we started to wonder which characters represented which greek gods!! It was totally awesome, and it sort of allusiony wayz worked out too. :P

The minute we start picking periodic elements, star signs, fringe glyphs or malaysian deities for our protagonists, call me in :D I dont know if its the geek mystery guy, or the dramatic characters of fringe lovin freak that likes that idea more :D

And and...OMG walter should totally host a stoned ass tea party in one scene :D :D Would you like anymore strawberry flavoured death? Oh, no, ive had quite enough strawberry. Is there any spare death?

If peter is the bringer of a prophecy, the he is a bit like neo, in the matrix, a visionary who guides the future?

Its funny, the best way I see it, is that peter is the one reasonable person who sees an easy solution to all the drama, without all the fussing :P Like thoth perhaps.....

[jade86]

Was just reading this and had the sudden, disturbing image of Walter and Walternate as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. :haha: :haha: :p

Hahahahahahaha!

[Peet]

It's interesting, isn't it?

The period elements idea certainly sounds intriguing! :p


I dont know if its the geek mystery guy, or the dramatic characters of fringe lovin freak that likes that idea more :D

Probably a bit of both. Or a lot of both! :haha:

[xevious]

Peter could be a mix of Hermes and Apollo :D

Oh no, don't go there. Don't go all ancient Greece on us, like some LOST meaning guru. ;)
:lolol:

[Montecito]

Don't go all ancient Greece on us, like some LOST meaning guru. ;)


Fringe should go all ancient Greece! We are the Best! We created Democracy! We created Philosophy! We had the best ancient Religion! We had Zeus! Fringe should feature the 12 gods of Olympus! Greek mythology is the best mythology in the world!! Fringe would be so rich if takes stuff from Greek mythology"! We aslo created Parthenon! Hippocrates is the father of Medicine!! We had Alexander the Great!! What did you guys had??
Aristotle wrote about Metaphysics!!! Fringe must show that!!!
Greece is the best! Peter maybe has Greek origins! Maybe the First People were the Ancient Greeks!!!!!!!!!!

























just joking :P

[jade86]

Montecito i didn't know you were Greek! :)
An European like me! ;) But i'm Italian :D



Greece is the best! Peter maybe has Greek origins! Maybe the First People were the Ancient Greeks!!!!!!!!!!


I hope you're right :happy15:

[Montecito]

Montecito i didn't know you were Greek! :)
An European like me! ;) But i'm Italian :D


yeah we are neighbours..:happy15:



I hope you're right :happy15:

maybe you missed the last two words of my post..:P

[jade86]

maybe you missed the last two words of my post..:P

Hahahahaha, no i read them XD
But i want to believe :D

[xevious]

I meant no offence to the Greeks... I'm actually a big fan of Greek philosophy and culture. But incorporating that into the theme of the show... it's just a bit overdone. LOST had historic references to the Egyptians (which were never explained). I wouldn't want to see a repeat of something similar...
:ninja:

[Montecito]

I meant no offence to the Greeks... I'm actually a big fan of Greek philosophy and culture. But incorporating that into the theme of the show... it's just a bit overdone. LOST had historic references to the Egyptians (which were never explained). I wouldn't want to see a repeat of something similar...
:ninja:

there is no need to apologize! i understand what you are saying..

and if you see the end of my post i said i was just joking..:P

[The_war_is_already_on]

So, lost dropped the ball. That doesnt mean it cant be done right.

Look at BSG, and its allusions to the twelve gods of kobol. This , yes spurred many theories - but the ideas did effect the show - the characters in the show connected to the twelve gods of kobol, were a sort of time cycle from previous civilisations, and they acted out similar actions to their predecessors. The whole story wasnt told, but it was nothing like losts random use of egyptian gods (which is rich story telling material, so the fact they never used it shows how useless they are)

Real world myth worlds very well in this way, because its so rich, and people like to connect with something outside of the show (like science in fringe). X-files is a great example, if they had used totally invented mythology, over real world mythology (as they did, govt conspiracies, grays, UFO's etc), it could have been hackneyed and cheezy.

Same with battestar. Its link back to the real world earth in mythology and culture, makes it less of an imagi-wank, like star wars, and more of an approachable real story telling setting.

So actually using real world myth is great (and in fact usually somehow the source of Sci-fi ideas)...

And fringe already does use real world mythology. We have so far referred to alchemy, several ancient peoples and more. Main difference from lost, is this stuff is more of a clue/easter egg nature, ie delibrately put in specifically, rather than just sitting behind the characters obviously, the work of some out of the loop and overenthusiastic prop man...The fact that the observers are named so, or that there is an alchemy symbol in two eps, is a delebrate allusion, at the least.

[jade86]

I agree with you, the_war_is_already_on! As always :D

[Obyron]

Yeah, the thing I hated the most about BSG-- a show I otherwise loved-- was all the theological crap. It was hamfisted and poorly done, and the show's ending was a huge letdown. That's why I don't want to see Fringe wade into that territory.

I like weird theorizing too, but I try to keep it plausible. :P A lot of folks here seem to, er, go all out. ;)

[The_war_is_already_on]

Yeah, the thing I hated the most about BSG-- a show I otherwise loved-- was all the theological crap. It was hamfisted and poorly done, and the show's ending was a huge letdown.Not sure I totally agree. In part. Some of the mythology was not satifactorily addressed, it would have been nice to have included more kobol, or thirteenth colony story before the end of BSG.......But then some of the more spiritual elements might have been better kept as a mysterious suggestion, rather than the rainbow happy ending nonsense of lost...(Ie, having open mysteries on matters of theology, is probably better than some pseudo christian happy ending)

Trouble is, im sure the creators of BSG re-imagined knew there would be spin-offs. They made four or more movies, theres the caprica spin-off and they are negotiating another as we speak, even as caprica is only half way through season 1!

So maybe they wanted to save some of those stories for later telling. Thirteenth colony,earth or kobol would be facinating as seperate stories...

When in comes to the more thematic, and less theological, the "history repeats" thing, they actually did this very well. One can see the characters and players in kobol, thirteenth colony, the battlestar fleet are not so different....

I will however, openly admit, I hope always for a more grounded explaination of these things. Something that relates to science, even if its philosophical, or out there in some way. I was hoping that the brain hints, and stuff about the stream would turn out to be some dimensional phenomena....But they left all that open. So, yeah ending was pretty weak. A sort of soft option - but unlike lost the saga isnt over, so it wasnt TOO ricidulous to leave some mysteries....(and much better than saying, hey, there are angels, and gods blah blah like certain other shows )

Something I found quite insightful there, was the two cylon based movies than came out after the finale. They explained alot of the cylon backstory, and it was pretty grounded, kinda "heres what this was about" stuff.

I personally think that's a great idea, if your too chickened to do a myth heavy wrap up for a finale...just do one or two extra TV movies after and fill in those blanks a bit...........

Personally I hold the BSG thing more in the realm of symbollic and philosophical allusion, like some of the earlier hints in lost, or the destiny issues in shows like flashfoward and more, rather than a full on religious propaganda. But funny thing is about that, Im perfectly happy with hard to imagine situations, like after-lives or other things, if its something than appears to be logically and scientifically consistant (ie my mind can hold it without me having to crack up laughing). But at the level of allusion, that doesnt play too heavily into plot, I dont anyone can complain (but there, hey maybe BSG went slightly overboard there with its whole "angels" thing. When people see a mystery like starbucks situation, they want to get an answer they can be happy with)

[Peet]

Oh I see (after looking at Wikipedia article on kobol :haha: )

What's interesting is that, while there are twelve Lords or whatever, they aren't the traditional "Big Twelve" that you'd expect.

[xevious]

and if you see the end of my post i said i was just joking..:P

Ah... you see, I'm scroll-challenged. Sometimes I just don't quite make it to the end.


;) :haha:

[The_war_is_already_on]

What's interesting is that, while there are twelve Lords or whatever, they aren't the traditional "Big Twelve" that you'd expect.

Yeah, they are more "greek", humans with divine tasks rather than divine beings with human tasks..

[Peet]

It sounds interesting. :p
I might have to start watching that show.

[jade86]

Yeah, they are more "greek", humans with divine tasks rather than divine beings with human tasks..

Are you talking about Observers, right? :confused0006:
I'm lost :P

[Peet]

Something about Battlestar Galactica, me thinks.

We got a bit sidetracked lol :p

[jade86]

I found important clues, watching some episodes of the first season.

In "the arrival", walter says that the cylinder is made of iridium.
In the episode "the ghost network", walter says that he and Bell worked for a interception project, working on the psychic abilities of the voluntary subjects; a project that then was called "the ghost network". Bell and Walter strengthened these experiments inserting pieces of IRIDIUM in the heads of the subjects. According to me, this project has taken sprout from the psychic abilities of the Observers (and Peter) to read the thought and foresee the future. Roy was able to foresee the future events and drew them....and was found iridium in his body! I also think that the instrument that walter put on the head of Roy (and the baby Observer) has also been experimented on Peternate to test his psychic abilities. A further confirmation of this bond with the Observers was the sign for the next episode: the cylinder symbol. (cylinder --> iridium)
Do you remember, then, when two students knocked the door of Walter's lab, asking if that was the "classroom 101"? (episode "ghost network")
Well....I found out that the number "101" is also on the door of the Observer's apartment, in the episode "August" :D

[xevious]

Iridium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium), eh? :confused0006:


"Iridium is one of the least abundant elements in the Earth's crust, having an average mass fraction of 0.001 ppm in crustal rock; gold is 4 times more abundant, platinum is 10 times more abundant, and silver and mercury are 80 times more abundant."

It was also used quite extensively in the making of fountain pen nibs. Not exactly a completely inert metal... probably not a good idea to have it inserted into your skull. ;)

[Peet]

Iridium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium), eh? :confused0006:



It was also used quite extensively in the making of fountain pen nibs. Not exactly a completely inert metal... probably not a good idea to have it inserted into your skull. ;)

No :haha:

Probably not as bad as Uranium, though :p

[jade86]

I shared with you some informations about the extintion of the dinosaurs, because of an asteroid where were found traces of iridium.

I read that the iridium is almast rare in Earth, but it's typical of asteroids.
I found interesting things about the "impact", that it involved "the native" (first people hehe) and about the discovering of some curious finds.

Here are the links!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater (the impact in Mexico)

http://www.crystalinks.com/icastones.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/icastones.html)("Ica Stones" found in Perù)

My theory is....
If the cylinder in "the arrival" has to do with Peter, it's made with iridium and iridium comes from asteroids....is possible that all that has to do with Peter's real origins.

The meaning of Peter's name is "rock", "stone" :)

Maybe at the dinosaurs's Age there were people, like the Observers.
Then, the impact of the asteroid caused not only the extinction of dinosaurs but also a genetic mutation to the Observers, mostly because of iridium effect. They became very intelligent, powerful and more advanced than usual.

I really like this quotations:
"Two are the most reliable hypotheses: the iridium could have been transported from the inside of the solar system on our planet through a comet, or through an asteroid.
In both cases an enormous quantity of extraterrestrial material (around 500 million tons!) would have been depressed on our planet, with a speed around 10 km to the second, with imaginible, disastrous consequences on the biological world"

"Science always tells us that the dinosaurs and human beings are not coexisted..but what if it weren't this way? If the first people had been parallel to the dinosaurs and the little ones remained after the advent of the asteroid they had decided to live under the earth to survive?"

Those people discovered that asteroid gave off an incredible energy and that there was also an "alien" form of life, in a state of nature (Peter).
They preserved the asteroid as monument for a while and foreseed the birth of a human being mixing the DNA from the asteroid with theirs (already manipulated because of the iridium). Then, someone (i don't know who) wrote the prophecy. Then, that "myth" got through to civilizations like Maya and other similar populations.

Here's why peter liked dinosaurs? Here's why Walter always calls Astrid "astro", "asteroid" ecc?? :confused0066:

I also noted that in olivia's calssroom, in Jacksonville, there were things that had to do with dinosaurs and mammoth. There was also a poetry about dinosaurs! Peter liked dinosaurs! What if cortexiphan came from the energy of the asteroid/comet, and therefore Peter? :confused0066:

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

Don't forget the Ice Age toys in the Jacksonville classroom that was supposed to be abandoned since the 80s, maybe that was a clue...

[jade86]

Don't forget the Ice Age toys in the Jacksonville classroom that was supposed to be abandoned since the 80s, maybe that was a clue...

You're right!

[Peet]

Maybe at the dinosaurs's Age there were people, like the Observers.
Then, the impact of the asteroid caused not only the extinction of dinosaurs but also a genetic mutation to the Observers, mostly because of iridium effect. They became very intelligent, powerful and more advanced than usual.

I love this idea. Would this mean there would be trace amounts of iridium in the Observer's blood?


As a side note, am I the only one that pictured the "asteroid" as that weird obelisk thing in 2001: A Space Odyssey that came to earth and taught the cavemen how to use tools? :p

[jade86]

Did you read the links? :shiny:

[jade86]

To confirm this theory....Look at the monkeys!
The second picture comes from one of the Ica Stones O__O

http://j.imagehost.org/0250/normal_Fringe214-390.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0250/normal_Fringe214-390)http://j.imagehost.org/0187/nazcamonkey382.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0187/nazcamonkey382)


And then...
This other picture shocked me! It's always an Ica Stone and represents "The Coiling Snake (DNA) and the Tree of Life" ("tree of life" reminds me the Kabala O_O.....not to mention DNA!)

http://j.imagehost.org/0597/icasnaketree.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0597/icasnaketree)

"There's a stone that also represent the two mythical continents of Atlantis and Mu"

[jade86]

Oh, another thing...
I read that the Iridium's atomic numer is 77.
According to the Kabala's numbers, 77 means "Sacrifice. Acceptance of a legitimate command, a moral duty towards what is superior." :happy15:

[Peet]

Reading the links, and OH MY GOD IT'S THE NAZCA MONKEY!!!

I think that's what you posted the picture of too. It actually isn't on a stone, it's part of the Nazca lines that are in... Peru? Let me check.

Yeah. Peru. They're these strange lines that are in the middle of a desert, they're miles and miles long and yet they form shapes. A monkey, a spider, a bird. People have no idea how they got there. It's like Stonehenge. I've always been amazed by then, how the ancient people could get them so perfect at ground level.

http://anthropologynet.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/nasca-lines-bird.jpg

Look at how straight lose lines are! It's incredible! Anyway...



OH MY GOD! Just read a bit of the Wikipedia article, and they're called geoglyphs. GLYPHS!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines




Read other link. I know this crater! I watched this doco once that showed it really well. In these photos it just looks like grass :haha:
What's odd to me is that the place where the massive, extinction causing asteroid hit is still above sea level.

[jade86]

Reading the links, and OH MY GOD IT'S THE NAZCA MONKEY!!!

I think that's what you posted the picture of too. It actually isn't on a stone, it's part of the Nazca lines that are in... Peru? Let me check.

Yeah. Peru. They're these strange lines that are in the middle of a desert, they're miles and miles long and yet they form shapes. A monkey, a spider, a bird. People have no idea how they got there. It's like Stonehenge. I've always been amazed by then, how the ancient people could get them so perfect at ground level.

http://anthropologynet.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/nasca-lines-bird.jpg

Look at how straight lose lines are! It's incredible! Anyway...



OH MY GOD! Just read a bit of the Wikipedia article, and they're called geoglyphs. GLYPHS!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines




Read other link. I know this crater! I watched this doco once that showed it really well. In these photos it just looks like grass :haha:
What's odd to me is that the place where the massive, extinction causing asteroid hit is still above sea level.

The monkey picture i posted before was from one of the Ica Stones :)

Oh guys, you have no idea what i discovered while i was re-watching "Jacksonville".

You have to watch the scene with Olivia in the forest. I've watched it different times and now i'm quite sure that the strange background noises are verses of dinosaurs!!

[Peet]

Your picture:

http://j.imagehost.org/0187/nazcamonkey382.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0187/nazcamonkey382)

The Nazca Monkey:

http://www.greatlakespars.com/images/legends/Nazca_monkey.jpg


Look similar? :p

[jade86]

Your picture:

http://j.imagehost.org/0187/nazcamonkey382.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0187/nazcamonkey382)

The Nazca Monkey:

http://www.greatlakespars.com/images/legends/Nazca_monkey.jpg


Look similar? :p

Mmmmm.....Absolutely not! LOL :D

[jade86]

I've watched "inner child" yesterday, again. That episode is revealing full of clues!

- The baby observer could listen the other conversations in the distance, like Roy from "the ghost network" was able to do. That could mean that those experiments had something to do with observer's abilities (did you remember the pieces of iridium in the voluntary subjects's heads?). I'm pretty sure that gadget on baby observer's head was tested on Peternate,too. In fact, when peter looked at the boy with that gadget, he said to know how the boy could feel.
- The tunnel where the boy was found (it reminds me agharti's tunnels hehe) was 70 years old, so it dated back to 1938. That was the period of World War II, more or less.
- How did the boy learned to write if he lived underground for all those years? Does it mean that he learned to write underground? :D hehe..
- The woman in the laundry had a griffin tatoo on her harm. I read on wikepedia about a nazi operation called "Operation Greif". Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Greif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Greif)

[Peet]

About the Griffin, according to Wikipedia:


*The Achaemenids considered the griffin "a protector from evil, witchcraft and secret slander"

*The griffin was... made an emblem of the Church's views on remarriage.

*Being a union of a terrestrial beast and an aerial bird, it was seen in Christendom to be a symbol of Jesus

*According to Stephen Friar, a griffin's claw was believed to have medicinal properties and one of its feathers could restore sight to the blind.

*In heraldry, the griffin's amalgamation of lion and eagle gains in courage and boldness, and it is always drawn to powerful fierce monsters. It is used to denote strength and military courage and leadership.


Pretty interesting how much it seems to stand for :p

[jade86]

Indeed!

[Obyron]

Your picture:

http://j.imagehost.org/0187/nazcamonkey382.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0187/nazcamonkey382)

The Nazca Monkey:

http://www.greatlakespars.com/images/legends/Nazca_monkey.jpg


Look similar? :p

If I squint I can kind of see it... :P

[Peet]

^ Hahaha! :haha:

[The_war_is_already_on]

This without doubt is the best theory thread in the history of fringe, or even TELEVISION, lol.

Thanks to Obyron, peet, jade and so many others for bringing in the glyph monkeys and other mind fun!

[Zero]

Suprisingly enough, there is one thing about the Observers that I almost never see been metioned.

Well, better said, a scene:

In the 3rd chapter of the second season, after they take on custody the general, he talks abouthow the observers collect info about us and our technology in order to destroy us, and then we can see one of the cases contained pictures of walter

My question is...what if the general is right?? O_O what do you guys think??

I think the show itself have drifted us onto a good view about the observers...but what if they are not neccesarily neutral...or at least not in the future??

:confused0006:

[Peet]

First things first, I was so happy to see this thread resurface!

But, about the Observers...

I think they just have to make sure everything goes the way it's meant to. This would be why they turn up at major events throughout human history. And why, when one of them stopped Walternate from finding the cure, they had to help Walter with saving Peter. Because Peter is important, and he needed to survive.

So I don't think you can necessarily define them as good or bad, they simply carry out events as they were meant to. Since it wasn't initially intended for Walter to cross over, the destruction of either universe must be against the proper future... I think? I dunno. That's my two cents, anyway :haha:

[trishy81]

That makes sense. I think there is more to them than simply making sure humans don't screw up, but I don't think they're evil either.

[Zero]

Well, I´m not saying they´re good or bad..I´m just saying...what if the general is right?? XD

I mean..think about it, if they want things to be what they are "meant to"...what is this for???....what want they to occur??? what´s their final objective??

:observer:

[Peet]

:haha:

It is possible, I suppose, that there's is some big event that they want to happen. No, scratch that, it's very probably. But I still don't think this makes them 'evil'. Perhaps they may be orchestrating the destruction of our universe, if so, would they be evil? And if they wanted the destruction of the other, would they be good? No. I don't think so. The destruction of either is equally bad. I dunno. I had something to say in this, not sure if I communicated it very well. :haha:

[Pyrite]

I think that their neutrality and objectivity could definitely make them seem evil from our point of view, since they don't experience the sentimentality that humans have for each other. They have no reason to privilege one universe above another, whereas we have very good reason to want ours to survive above all others.

[Zero]

I think that their neutrality and objectivity could definitely make them seem evil from our point of view, since they don't experience the sentimentality that humans have for each other. They have no reason to privilege one universe above another, whereas we have very good reason to want ours to survive above all others.

And then came August...

[Pyrite]

And then came August...

Well, that episode seems (to me) to be making that exact point - those kind of irrational preferences are contrary to the Observers' mission.

[Zero]

Well, that episode seems (to me) to be making that exact point - those kind of irrational preferences are contrary to the Observers' mission.

I know right?....but I also see it (and I think that´s the chapter´s goal) as a way to show that they are not free from "living thing´s feelings"

And after all of that...it makes me see September as the most interesting of all of them. He didn´t only commit a mistake and then had to fix it...he also was the witness of the death of one of them because of human feelings. Even when they seem to act following a manual, they are independent, and all of these past facts could have changed September in some way.

[Pyrite]

Oh, I definitely agree. They are beings with feelings, but their goal is to be devoid of feeling. Perhaps Fringe is making a wider point about science and observation here: an observer always affects the thing they are observing, however much they try to be purely objective.

[dg5301]

Well, I´m not saying they´re good or bad..I´m just saying...what if the general is right?? XD

I mean..think about it, if they want things to be what they are "meant to"...what is this for???....what want they to occur??? what´s their final objective??

:observer:

My feeling is that they may be from a third universe, and their main motive could be self-preservation. I think they are trying to contain the clash between the two universes in order to protect their own from collateral damage. It's just a theory that I've had for a while, based on what the effect of an "observer" is in quantum theory, and fueled by some recent suggestions that there may be a third (yellow) universe to go with the two we know about (blue & red).