Origins of the Machine

[chamelean75]

Well, from Season 2, we know that the machine is observer technology. I had assumed from the finale of season 2 that Walternate built the machine from scratch using the blue prints.

Now after watching the box, I am not so sure.


Newton hired someone to dig up a piece of the machine in our universe. How Walternate even knew that a piece of the machine was in our universe is beyond me. Also, finding that piece in our universe gives me another idea. Perhaps Walternate didn't build the machine from scratch using the blue prints, maybe he found pieces of the machine scattered throughout the alternate universe and built the machine like a puzzle. I don't know how he managed to find the pieces. And that brings another question, why would pieces to one machine be scattered through out both universes? Perhaps they were scattered to ensure that the machine was never built and used???

Also, how did Walternate even acquire the blue prints. Did the observers scatter the pieces?? If they did, they wouldn't be simply, "observers" anymore since that would be direct involvement. Or perhaps an ancestor of the Bishops scattered it and that's why the machine works with Peter.

Or maybe the machine creates Observers and Peter is the next observer??? One of the observers last season did die.

[dg5301]

You raise some good questions, but I have to disagree with your opening premise. All we know is that the Observers knew about the machine and felt that they needed to alert the blue Fringe team about it, not that it was their technology. It has been pretty strongly hinted that the machine is First People technology.

[jade86]

Maybe Peter was created by first people and the observers for some reason and the machine could be a sort of weapon.

[jophan]

The concept the show is using for parallel universes is that when a decision is needed, a separate universe is created for each potential choice. If the split between the AU and the base universe happened more recently than the breakup of the device, then the pieces would be duplicated at the split and would be available in each universe. Walternate found many of the pieces over time; presumably, this would also tell him where the copies were on this side.

[chamelean75]

You raise some good questions, but I have to disagree with your opening premise. All we know is that the Observers knew about the machine and felt that they needed to alert the blue Fringe team about it, not that it was their technology. It has been pretty strongly hinted that the machine is First People technology.

I recall that in the 2 episode season 2 finale, there was a shot of Walternate looking at an image of the machine (not a blue print) with Peter in it and that page also had observer handwriting one it.

[jophan]

It wasn't identifiable as "Observer" handwriting. The symbols on Walternate's copy of the sketch look more like an alphabet than the symbols we've seen September use. (I'm not counting August's because he was deliberately encoding atomic diagrams for Walter to recognize.)

[dg5301]

Yes, I believe that was the sheet that the Observer gave them. The writing could be the Observers' notes about the machine, but it doesn't have to mean that they created it. Different ways of looking at it, and we'll hopefully get our answer soon. I'm really looking forward to learning more about Observers and First People.

[dg5301]

The concept the show is using for parallel universes is that when a decision is needed, a separate universe is created for each potential choice. If the split between the AU and the base universe happened more recently than the breakup of the device, then the pieces would be duplicated at the split and would be available in each universe. Walternate found many of the pieces over time; presumably, this would also tell him where the copies were on this side.

Awesome point to bring up! I keep finding myself thinking of the machine and First People as somehow existing outside of the regular dynamic, similar to the Observers, but maybe that shouldn't be the case.

This concept would make a good thread for the Theories & Spec Section. Is there more than 1 machine? Are there multiples of First People as well, or are they somehow special (enlightened as to what "reality" really is, maybe?) & therefore able to exist across dimensional boundaries?

[jade86]

Maybe the peaces of the machine are unique and someone (observers? first people?) hid them in both universes. This make me think that maybe the machine, the other ancient technologies, the first people, the observers and peternate are all unique. Maybe Peter1 and Peter2 weren't the same person.

[The_war_is_already_on]

The machine is not nessasarily observer built. We only know, they had a picture and prophecy kept, that is all.

Given "first people", i expect there is a deep and rich backstory to the fringe universe, we will see later.

I would suggest, that its one of two things 1, theres more than one of everything, thus one buried in each world, hidden away somewhere, 2 theres only one of each part, hid in both universes? (which seems a little contrived, and bizzare if you ask me).

The design seems similar though, to observer tech. So you could be right too.

I think our walters propechy of what happens with weapons of mass descruction, might be walternate's goal, to drive the other side to outright war, or lure them back over?

[queenbeesteph]

I wonder if the Observers' references to certain people being "important" means they are important to the machine? Or is "importance" completely different?

[RETLAW]

We only "know" it is "old tech". We do not know that it is observer technology at all, only that they had access to plans of it. One theory is that it is linked to "First People" (which are NOT observers).

If you want more info on it and don't mind spoilers then check out the interview in the spoiler forum with Pinker/Wyman where they talk about this in "Secrets of Fringe". I have it under the post "Pinker & Wyman Basically Out Sam Weiss"

[queenbeesteph]

Interesting! I do agree that the Observers and the First People are two separate things. It doesn't mean that they are not connected somehow, though. It is possible the technology is older than the Observers, but it doesn't mean that the Observers are not aware or guarding or protecting the technology. That might be why people, like Peter, are "important". The Observers understand (to whatever degree) the purpose or the operation of the technology.

[jophan]

I wonder if the Observers' references to certain people being "important" means they are important to the machine? Or is "importance" completely different?
The Observers are concerned with events that are critical to the timelines of various universes. They may be branching points that create radically different new universes or events that make the timelines in similar universes diverge further. The future role of the machine and Peter as its operator, whether he chooses not to use it, to use it to destroy one world to save the other, or to use it to heal the damage (if he can), certainly would be a critical point in these two universes. That makes him important. So, presumably, there may have been individuals who were critical to other pivotal events, such as the assassin of Franz Ferdinand. Other events may have been less dependent on an individual; would the French Revolution still have happened if there had been a different king or advisers of different competences?

I guess I need to address the girl in "August" as well. If you look at Asimov's psychohistory series, he posits that individuals usually mean little to the overall society's evolution. Whether one art student dies in a plane crash or lives on is pretty much immaterial. But the Observers are "not supposed to get involved" and feel that they must correct any deviation they themselves cause. This implies that their intervention in "OT1" by giving Olivia the sketch is a continuation of the intervention in "Peter"; that Peter's returning to his homeworld in those circumstances made it less likely that he would reach the same decision point that he would have if his own father had cured him in the first place.

[dg5301]

Question: Has it been made clear whether the machine itself is old and they discovered it already built, or if they simply discovered the plans and built it themselves? I'm not sure if I missed that in one one of the episodes. The answer to that question might help to answer some other questions, like whether or not there is more than one machine.

If the machine is super-ancient and predates the split in universes, then there would be two machines. If it was built recently following old plans, there might just be one machine, with an undiscovered (or unused) set of plans in the "blue" universe. If First People can somehow exist beyond the normal constraints of our universes like the Observers (and the machine turns out to be FP tech), then everything goes out the window... :confused0006:

[Omniscient_Jay]

Question: Has it been made clear whether the machine itself is old and they discovered it already built, or if they simply discovered the plans and built it themselves? I'm not sure if I missed that in one one of the episodes. The answer to that question might help to answer some other questions, like whether or not there is more than one machine.

If the machine is super-ancient and predates the split in universes, then there would be two machines. If it was built recently following old plans, there might just be one machine, with an undiscovered (or unused) set of plans in the "blue" universe. If First People can somehow exist beyond the normal constraints of our universes like the Observers (and the machine turns out to be FP tech), then everything goes out the window... :confused0006:

Walternate has stated that it is "very old tech". Either supposition you present has merit, but as you may recall, the machine in Walternate's possession is officially branded "Wave Sink No3", so it's probably not the first iteration of the device.

Are there two other machines hidden somewhere, then?:confused0006:

Questions, questions, questions...:P

[jade86]

I think that "wave sink No 3" is the name of one of the other devices hidden in both universes. And, speaking of devices....maybe i'm wrong but looking at the blueprint about the episode "the box" i tried to count the devices designed around the machine and for the time being they're 8-9.
But...what if they were 12 in all??? O__O

[Omniscient_Jay]

I think that "wave sink No 3" is the name of one of the other devices hidden in both universes. And, speaking of devices....maybe i'm wrong but looking at the blueprint about the episode "the box" i tried to count the devices designed around the machine and for the time being they're 8-9.
But...what if they were 12 in all??? O__O

So that little X-Box in the final scene of Over There Part 1 is the third Wave Sink?:confused:

I haven't thought of that before...:confused0006:

By this reasoning, there are three wave sinks that fit somewhere into the overall device (among other parts).

I imagine that by "Peter is engaged", that he must activate the pieces by interacting with them (since they are part organic).

So did he activate the Wave Sink while Over There?

And I imagine that you are referring to the :observer:s when you say "12". It would be a neat correlation, but I don't think they had that much of a hand in the creation of the device (we'll leave that possibility to the First People for now).

Interesting stuff...:reader:

[jade86]

I also think that peter himself somehow needs to be activated....Maybe he has hidden powers that need to be awakened. :confused0006:

[Omniscient_Jay]

I also think that peter himself somehow needs to be activated....Maybe he has hidden powers that need to be awakened. :confused0006:

Peter has suggested that the machine is symbiotic in nature, so it's conceivable that Peter and the Machine would need to activate one another.

Also, according to Walter, the entire human race has hidden powers that are dormant and could possibly be awakened.

Is a Great Awakening in the works? Will Peter lead Humanity to its former greatness as the first of these re-awakened souls?:ninja:

This is some potentially epic shizzlenit right here, boys...:observer:

[Mutsie]

... and in "Over There" Part I @ 14:46 when Olivia arrives with the rest of the Coretxi-"kids" she said "This is new, who authorized it?" and Broyles said yadayada-Intelligence, Thanks to Peter. It was part of the LIST OF DEMANDS" he had.... So who knows he had some "looking into the future" ability as well....

:confused0006:

:observer::tiphat:

[jade86]

Peter has suggested that the machine is symbiotic in nature, so it's conceivable that Peter and the Machine would need to activate one another.

Also, according to Walter, the entire human race has hidden powers that are dormant and could possibly be awakened.

Is a Great Awakening in the works? Will Peter lead Humanity to its former greatness as the first of these re-awakened souls?:ninja:

This is some potentially epic shizzlenit right here, boys...:observer:

I agree!
Let's remember the famous sentence "you have no idea what you're capable of Peter", Peter's touch (the writers said that it's a very important clue), and all the moments where he showed some of the Observers's abilities. Maybe this is only part of his abilities.
And we shouldn't understimate episodes like "night of desirable objects" where a man created a super baby with the DNA from different creatures.

It's possible that Peter is a product of First People and Observers. I have this idea for a long time :confused0006:

So, dear Walter, try to remember what is Peter capable of, help him to rewaken his powers and make us happy :D

[jophan]

[somehow wound up in wrong thread]

[elektrikpikkles]

Maybe Peter1 and Peter2 weren't the same person.


So, dear Walter, try to remember what is Peter capable of, help him to rewaken his powers and make us happy :D




I always thought the 2 Peters shown in the ep 'Peter' were similar looking but not necessarily supposed to be the same. And aren't his pictures as a boy all kinda odd, like they aren't the same kid?? And Walter was renowned for his work in genetic hybridization. And he did assume Peter would be 'fatter'!!! And didn't the 2 Peters have different eye colors??

I wouldn't be tooooo surprised if Peter had different parentage in one of the universes than in the other...

And yes please, delve into Peter's origins this season, please!!

[jade86]

Woooooooooooooooooo!! Take a look!! :D :happy15:

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8784/hehezq.th.jpg (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/hehezq.jpg/)

[Mutsie]

Woooooooooooooooooo!! Take a look!! :D :happy15:

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8784/hehezq.th.jpg (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/hehezq.jpg/)


Great find and please post it in only one thread, sweetie!!!
:o

:observer::tiphat:

[jade86]

These other symbols look like more to the observer's writing!

http://i51.tinypic.com/20ax65w.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2egflug.jpg[/spoiler]

[queenbeesteph]

Woooooooooooooooooo!! Take a look!! :D :happy15:

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8784/hehezq.th.jpg (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/hehezq.jpg/)
Same symbol... good eyes!

[AM]

Maybe I'm the only one but that box looks like the one in the movie "City of Ember".

Anyway, What if Walternate isn't only using Peter to get the machine to work, but having him unknowingly having make it work with his DNA. That would be a twist, and it might explain why Walter has to be involved. They share DNA. :observer:

[FringeBinge]

I wonder if the cylinder/beacon from The Arrival could have something to do with the machine. Gotta be important to all this somehow. :confused0006:

[Rekka]

This may be very far-fetched, but it is what it is. I had this thought related to why there are pieces of this machine scattered throughout multiple universes.

Given the fact that the machine is very "old tech", it could have existed far back in the timeline of history. Exactly how far back it is unclear and probably irrelevant, but... let's just say that the machine was in fact WHOLE at some point in time... it was activated and thusly ruptured the fabric of time, creating various off-shoots of the universe (parallel universes). Pieces of the machine broke apart and were sucked into various other universes.

In this scenario, there could be any number of universes with any number of pieces of this machine... But if we only focus on TWO--two fragmented worlds, each an equal half of the other--it would be interesting to see these two worlds "come together" after such a long time apart. Nina's referrence to the Pauli exclusion principle comes to mind; only one object can occupy the same space at the same time... but what if the two are able to MERGE, two halves becoming a "new" whole? Two separate and fragmented worlds must both be destroyed in order to be "reborn" anew, 'healed' as it were. The reason why there are pieces of the machine on both sides is because the two worlds used to be ONE at some point in the past.

I'm totally not saying this is what I think the writers are taking the show--it's just a complete fantasy of my exhausted yet somehow creative brain. What do you think?

[smebro]

This may be very far-fetched, but it is what it is. I had this thought related to why there are pieces of this machine scattered throughout multiple universes.

Given the fact that the machine is very "old tech", it could have existed far back in the timeline of history. Exactly how far back it is unclear and probably irrelevant, but... let's just say that the machine was in fact WHOLE at some point in time... it was activated and thusly ruptured the fabric of time, creating various off-shoots of the universe (parallel universes). Pieces of the machine broke apart and were sucked into various other universes.

In this scenario, there could be any number of universes with any number of pieces of this machine... But if we only focus on TWO--two fragmented worlds, each an equal half of the other--it would be interesting to see these two worlds "come together" after such a long time apart. Nina's referrence to the Pauli exclusion principle comes to mind; only one object can occupy the same space at the same time... but what if the two are able to MERGE, two halves becoming a "new" whole? Two separate and fragmented worlds must both be destroyed in order to be "reborn" anew, 'healed' as it were. The reason why there are pieces of the machine on both sides is because the two worlds used to be ONE at some point in the past.

I'm totally not saying this is what I think the writers are taking the show--it's just a complete fantasy of my exhausted yet somehow creative brain. What do you think?


I like this! I theorised a few weeks back, before S3 began, that the Observers had created the original split as a means of halting dangerous technologies or hiding universe-destroying secrets. I thought that perhaps the 'First People' of alterfringe were the Observers of our side- Alterfringe wouldn't have known of Observers because Observers appear to have spent most of the last few years (Decades, centuries) on our side. I've read on here that the writters have revealed that Observers and First people are not the same- so there goes that theory.

But I still hold onto the concept of an eventual merge of universes. WaveSync just screams it! The Wave of possibilities (In this case the two universes we're watching) will be synced into one coherent history- perhaps dotted with the historical events as observed by observers on either side (A mix of elements from both.)
However the ol'Crisis on Multiple earth's is a DC comics staple since long ago(Multiple universes, very different, occasionally merge so that characters have entirely new histories)- so unless the fringe universes arose as a result of recent Crisis in the DC universe which I missed(Couldn't afford), or the result of the significant 'Crisis in infinite Worlds' from the 80's, I think the writers would want to avoid retreading old territory that some of the audience would be familiar with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_on_Infinite_Earths
So who knows. Likely curve-balls are on the way so all bets are off.
A side note re this: In DC's version of events there are still people/heroes who are aware of the dramatic change to the world due to the fact they were present at the event of the merge- exempt from being folded/altered in favor of the new reality, this led to oddities like Batmans daughter finding herself without a recorded past, and double Flashes and Supermen/Superboys/Wonderwomen having to find a place alongside heroes they never knew before (Though history has records of them fighting alongside each other). If Fringe did this I think we would still have a set of characters who are well aware of what was lost and gained- or maybe only Peter will recall.
Wouldn't it be interesting if the two Walters merged into an amalgam Walter- what would he be like?

[WhatsUpDoc1958]

The Observers are concerned with events that are critical to the timelines of various universes. They may be branching points that create radically different new universes or events that make the timelines in similar universes diverge further. The future role of the machine and Peter as its operator, whether he chooses not to use it, to use it to destroy one world to save the other, or to use it to heal the damage (if he can), certainly would be a critical point in these two universes. That makes him important. So, presumably, there may have been individuals who were critical to other pivotal events, such as the assassin of Franz Ferdinand. Other events may have been less dependent on an individual; would the French Revolution still have happened if there had been a different king or advisers of different competences?

I guess I need to address the girl in "August" as well. If you look at Asimov's psychohistory series, he posits that individuals usually mean little to the overall society's evolution. Whether one art student dies in a plane crash or lives on is pretty much immaterial. But the Observers are "not supposed to get involved" and feel that they must correct any deviation they themselves cause. This implies that their intervention in "OT1" by giving Olivia the sketch is a continuation of the intervention in "Peter"; that Peter's returning to his homeworld in those circumstances made it less likely that he would reach the same decision point that he would have if his own father had cured him in the first place.

Actually, in terms of Asimov science fiction novels, the Observers are more like the humans from past the 100,000th century in The End of Eternity. They are observers of time lines, and do not make any Reality Changes like those in the Eternity organization (save one at the end of the book). Eternity is an organization devoted to making Reality Changes via Minimal Necessary Changes to the time-line for the benefit of mankind.

[phx219]

so unless the fringe universes arose as a result of recent Crisis in the DC universe which I missed(Couldn't afford), or the result of the significant 'Crisis in infinite Worlds' from the 80's, I think the writers would want to avoid retreading old territory that some of the audience would be familiar with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_on_Infinite_Earths
So who knows. Likely curve-balls are on the way so all bets are off.
A side note re this: In DC's version of events there are still people/heroes who are aware of the dramatic change to the world due to the fact they were present at the event of the merge- exempt from being folded/altered in favor of the new reality, this led to oddities like Batmans daughter finding herself without a recorded past, and double Flashes and Supermen/Superboys/Wonderwomen having to find a place alongside heroes they never knew before (Though history has records of them fighting alongside each other). If Fringe did this I think we would still have a set of characters who are well aware of what was lost and gained- or maybe only Peter will recall.

Being a DC comics guy, this post caught my eye. I know its old, but I *had* to respond. Its way too interesting.

1985 - the year Crisis on Infinite Earths happened in the DCU.
1985 - a key focal point in the Back to the Future movies
1985 - the year John Connor is born in the Terminator-verse.
1985 - the year of not only Peter's saving (a first set of timelines), but of the rewrite currently (another new set of timelines.)

This is mostly a joke, but damn - is there something about 1985 that makes it a "soft spot" of timeline-divergence or something? Was the real reason for the rewrite in 1985 not the Observers interference, but the CRISIS? Or was it Marty McFly? Or Kyle Reese? hahaha.


What makes 1985 such a focal point... lol.

(yea yea, i know its just a lot of coincidence and/or homage... we know the producers have purposely shown alt-verse back to the future in the theater, and a crisis comic book cover. its just funny and awesome.)