If there must be balance....

[Duque de Osuna]

If there must be balance on the two sides, then how could Alice and Derek have two daughters in the other universe while on this side they were childless?

[vlada_vvv]

saying balance they didn't mean it literally

[BadInfluence]

Hadn't Walter explained it before that balance it achieved based on mass and nothing else? Or something like that at least? So that means that yes Alice and Derek could have children over there as long as something of similar mass is over here regardless of what it is.

[Olive_Dunham]

Both universes have to be in balance, which doesnt mean that they have to be equal...
Some people never had alternates, some other had them but then they died in one of the sides, alternates dont necessarily be born in the same year
Etcetera
When he says balance I dont think he even meant that both universes have the same mass, what he meant is that at a determined moment one universe has one mass, the other has another mass, and it should remain that way, if you take something from one of the universes you have to replace it with something of the same mass, so the universe's mass remains intact...
Is the mass of each universe that has to be in balance

[tricked]

Hadn't Walter explained it before that balance it achieved based on mass and nothing else? Or something like that at least? So that means that yes Alice and Derek could have children over there as long as something of similar mass is over here regardless of what it is. This. Basically. I think lol.

Although it's a bit more complicated than that.

Mass is directly related to energy. So a potential energy for the mass needs to be considered.

However, if we're talking MWI .... (from another thread where we were talking fairly heavily about this) .... it was mentioned that conservation of energy isn't really an issue with multiple worlds splitting off each other. That energy potential rests in quantum probabilities.

That's why it's more likely that the worlds are entangled imo .... the "balance" isn't so much about mass for mass, energy for energy ... rather, EFFECT for EFFECT. Mass and energy are considered, however when quantum entanglement is being mentioned, the two entangled "things" reflect the same events happening to them. If one of their measurable bits of data is altered, it is reflected in the other. However, the catch ... is that it's opposite spin, polarity, etc and so forth.

I think this is what the show is essentially trying to reflect ... the death of one in the Red means the life of that one in the blue. It's not "opposites" all the time ... rather, a difference in POLARITY. Up verses down. Not necessarily always death verses life.

I think the reason that the players in Fringe are so tightly wound together, is because of Walter. He is the "connecting" piece which ties them all together, and it was he that went over to the other side and grabbed Peter. So it's the Bishops .... over and over again. And so, spreading out FROM THE BISHOPS ... like ripple effects, you see the opposite polarity with those closest to them. The farther away you get from them "degrees of separation" ... the less you notice the polarity effect.

Furthermore, what binds them together ... and determines their "change" in polarity, is the Observers me thinks. Everytime they observer an event, they measure it ... thus they have the ability to erase what they wish, or change what they wish to a certain degree as the observer.

So "balance" isn't only about mass. I don't think. I don't always trust what Walter says , and I think that goes without saying lol ....

[altprime]

Balance only matters when transferring matter between universes. I think 'Proportion' would be a better way to describe it.

[FringeBinge]

The same question applies to how young William Bell died over there, JFK lived, etc. I don't think we are meant to have a great scientific answer to this question. Just accept that it is for purposes of enjoying the show.

[EllieL]

Although it's a bit more complicated than that.

Mass is directly related to energy. So a potential energy for the mass needs to be considered.

...

So "balance" isn't only about mass. I don't think. I don't always trust what Walter says , and I think that goes without saying lol ....

Walter gave a bit of a hint in that direction as well, in talking about his and Bell's discussions regarding what happens to the body's energy upon death. I think as long as the mass/energy levels are equivalent between universes, they're "in balance" though it doesn't have to be mass/energy from the same things.

[BadInfluence]

The same question applies to how young William Bell died over there, JFK lived, etc. I don't think we are meant to have a great scientific answer to this question. Just accept that it is for purposes of enjoying the show.

That goes without saying. But with a show like Fringe there will always be a strive to understand things. Especially when the show puts forth ideas (such as alternate universes) that are widely believed but not understood in our real lives. Just last night after this episode I pondered the idea that perhaps what people believe to be ghosts are actually a glimpse into another world. Sounds crazy I know.

[altwally]

Matter/mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. There is as much of each in our universe today as there was when it was created. There would also be as much in the red-verse as there was when it was created. The two universes are separate from each other. If you add or take away any measureable quantity of one from one universe and place it in the other, that same quantity has to be taken or added in the other.

[fragaria x phile]

I don't really know what I'm talking about...but I think this is what confuses me: why does the balance only matter sometimes?

Let's say that the balance refers to mass. Having and alternate or not has no bearing whatsoever on the balance of mass. Your alternate could break a leg, sit in bed, and gain 100 lbs more than you. Your alternate is taking mass from the plants and animals in his universe, and just gaining weight.

So if it's balance between universes... why would Walternate exchange Olivia's weight with most of Broyles? There has already been so much shifting: Bell, the truck, Nina's arm(?), part of Jones (?), shapeshifters(?), parts of the device, Peter.....

I dunno.

But apparently it's not about physics, its about people (Olivia). Still, to this point, it seems that what makes our two universes, out of the infinite universes possible, so interdependent is the people. That the human arrangement of mass matters more than other lifeforms. That slight differences in DNA (twins aren't even clones, we all know that mutations occur throughout development and depends on environment and chance). It's not THAT carbon atom that's fated to THAT carbon atom, but these people to another. And we know that there must be genetic differences, so its the overall personality and identity of PEOPLE not PHYSICS.... right?

That said, I DON'T GET IT. Maybe THATS why these two people created a softspot. They didn't have kids to balance it out.

There are other explanations. The girls could be nieces, adopted, or maybe Alice had been pregnant with stillbirths or miscarriages.

[tricked]

That goes without saying. But with a show like Fringe there will always be a strive to understand things. Especially when the show puts forth ideas (such as alternate universes) that are widely believed but not understood in our real lives. Just last night after this episode I pondered the idea that perhaps what people believe to be ghosts are actually a glimpse into another world. Sounds crazy I know. Doesn't sound crazy at all. It's a rabbit hole worth exploring as far as I'm concerned ... :)

And it's also one of the reasons I love the show. Parts of it get you thinking, coming up with your own connections about your experiences in life and possible explanations for some "unexplained phenomena" which may or may not take place with a person.

Some of us have had things happen to us which are very hard to explain with classical ideas or principles of Occum's Razor all the time. Sometimes shows like this spark ideas which give us some juicy bits to ponder ;)


I don't really know what I'm talking about...but I think this is what confuses me: why does the balance only matter sometimes?

Let's say that the balance refers to mass. Having and alternate or not has no bearing whatsoever on the balance of mass. Your alternate could break a leg, sit in bed, and gain 100 lbs more than you. Your alternate is taking mass from the plants and animals in his universe, and just gaining weight.

So if it's balance between universes... why would Walternate exchange Olivia's weight with most of Broyles? There has already been so much shifting: Bell, the truck, Nina's arm(?), part of Jones (?), shapeshifters(?), parts of the device, Peter.....

I dunno.

But apparently it's not about physics, its about people (Olivia). Still, to this point, it seems that what makes our two universes, out of the infinite universes possible, so interdependent is the people. That the human arrangement of mass matters more than other lifeforms. That slight differences in DNA (twins aren't even clones, we all know that mutations occur throughout development and depends on environment and chance). It's not THAT carbon atom that's fated to THAT carbon atom, but these people to another. And we know that there must be genetic differences, so its the overall personality and identity of PEOPLE not PHYSICS.... right?

That said, I DON'T GET IT. Maybe THATS why these two people created a softspot. They didn't have kids to balance it out.

There are other explanations. The girls could be nieces, adopted, or maybe Alice had been pregnant with stillbirths or miscarriages. Walter himself threw out the term "emotional quantum entanglement".

So there you have it. A deus ex machina which will most likely solve the physical inconsistencies within the show in regards to "balance" and some other aspects.

It's long been theorized on these forums as to how important emotions played in the Fringe mythos ... to the degree that some have guessed the Observers measure emotional response and energy in individuals even with their binoculars.

Now we are seeing "soulties" and emotional connections causing ripping through the fabric of the universe.

One problem I see with this, is that people have been seeing ghosts for centuries ... long before Walter caused the breakdowns. So if this is the case, then why haven't all these other people who "see ghosts" causes vortexes? Why haven't all these other poltergeists caused holes in the cracks? What about doppelgangers and channeling spirits, etc and so forth .. assuming this is all interdimensional stuff taking place ... why haven't they caused vortexes? Or are we to assume that they have just been chipping away at something which Walter brought a sledge hammer to?

Anyway .... emotional energy and balance plays a part I'm guessing. People's perspectives emotionally will help to keep the universe intact.

In other words, so long as everyone is happy and doesn't think bad things, then the Staypuft Marshmallow Man won't attack NYC :)

[PottedPlant]

[QUOTE=fragaria x phile;281296]
So if it's balance between universes... why would Walternate exchange Olivia's weight with most of Broyles? There has already been so much shifting: Bell, the truck, Nina's arm(?), part of Jones (?), shapeshifters(?), parts of the device, Peter.....

I think it's because when the balance wasn't kept, the vortexes occured. Balancing the weight between Broyles and Olivia was to protect against a vortex.

[Walteristic!]

The answer to that question in simple. We're talking about only 2 universes, so a couple didn't have children here and the same couple had children there, means that a different couple that never had children there had children here. Balance.

BUT there are many questions unanswered. Like when they all went to the alternate universe, there were 2 Olivias, 2 Walters, 2 Jameses, 2 Nicks and 2 Sallies, no balance but no vortex.

Of course if we say they were there for less than 35 hours, so the exchange didn't have to happen... I don't know... James Heath was the only one who 'stayed' there (he died but his mass still existed, unlike Sally and Nick, who burst into flames) but his mass could have been replaced anywhere in the world, I guess... um...

[capri]

I think you guys, like I said in a similar thread in the Immortality subforum, are taking the concept and running way too far with it. Balance can only exist at time 0, from there different choices, or dumb luck, create different paths for the two universes.

The whole why does altBoyles needs to be the same mass as altOlivia for the transfer to work out has nothing to do with balance. Rewatch The Man from the Other Side (Season 2 Episode 19), in it Walter and Peter explain in quite a lot of detail the concept of transferring objects between universes (in that case Ballie's Monte Carlo)

[Six-fingered Girl]

Matter/mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. There is as much of each in our universe today as there was when it was created. There would also be as much in the red-verse as there was when it was created. The two universes are separate from each other. If you add or take away any measureable quantity of one from one universe and place it in the other, that same quantity has to be taken or added in the other.

Yes, this! When AltDerek and AltAlice had children over there, it's not as though the atoms that formed those children were created from nothing and incorporated into them. The material that they were made from had existed in the universe from the beginning. When Derek and Alice from Over Here decided not to have children, those atoms that could have been used just got purposed into other things. And when people die, their atoms don't vanish but move on to new lives as trees and fish and cars, eventually. Basically, the existence of a person in one universe or another does NOT preclude or require the existence of a person in another universe because they are supposed to be closed systems.

It's different when we're actually talking about moving matter into another universe where it didn't originate. Peter's mass/atoms didn't not belong in the Blue Universe when Walter brought him over, so that's what caused all the problems. When they talk about balance, I think that's what they mean. The universes are out of whack now because they're actually missing or have superfluous matter/energy.

[tricked]

I think one thing that we perhaps are all missing, is that the Balance topic might not be so much of a main focus. It's more like, half the focus.

The other half is the "natural course of events".

I think we take for granted that the Observers interfere so much, when remember that initally they are not supposed to interefere at all really. And although we've been told that Walter crossing over and taking Peter was the event that upset the balance, I don't think it really was. It wasn't the CAUSE ... it was the EFFECT following the cause. In Peter, we are told the cause:



THE OBSERVER: I have made... a mistake.
DECEMBER: So I've heard. What were you doing in the lab?
THE OBSERVER: Doctor Bishop was on the verge of developing a cure for the boy. It was an important moment. He discovered me. There was no other way to witness the moment.
AUGUST: You have changed the future. You have created a new set of probabilities.
THE OBSERVER: But you must agree the moment was significant. The boy is significant.
DECEMBER: You need to take action to restore balance.
THE OBSERVER: How?
AUGUST: You will have an opportunity to fix this.

So what changed the future? The Observer being discovered changed the future. It's what upset the balance ... because him being discovered introduced the new set of probabilties.

I surmise, that had he not been discovered, we would not see the Observers getting involved WHATSOEVER.

Now the key to this, is NOT that Walter was peering over into the other universe. It was that the Observer was discovered. Yes? And after that, we see the Observers directly communicating and interacting with others. Before that, for all we know ... they never did. They remained undiscovered.

For all we know, events would still have found a way to unfold the way they have thus far, with Walter crossing over for some reason as he spied on the boy, trying to save him again in the future from yet another event.

My point, is that I'm not so sure the breakdown of the two universes by Walter/Walternate/Peter interaction wasn't immenent (sp) anyway. But the natural course of events it took to get there was disrupted ... and thus the balance was directly disrupted as well.

So it's not just about mass/energy/etc. It's also about limiting probabilities and allowing a course of events to unfold as they would naturally ... and what disrupted this was interfenced by the Observers of the events. What screwed everything up, wasn't Walter taking Peter initially. It was simply Walter/Walternate noticing the Observer :).

[MYOB]

not so much noticing the observer as the observer's presence distracting Walternate from making the discovery.

[tricked]

not so much noticing the observer as the observer's presence distracting Walternate from making the discovery. But this is what we assume because this is the course the events took.

This isn't what the Observers complained about though as being "the mistake". They simply said the observer beign noticed changed the future. We assume, because of the way it was presented, that it involved the way Walternate's cure was going to be discovered or not discovered. But we are focussing on the effect, not the cause. THAT is my point. :observer:

[go_ask_alice]

Concerning mass, balance and energy, is faux-Livia's baby the key to balancing the two verses? When Peter was taken the alt-verse was upset, since this new baby shares half the DNA of Peter maybe it will right the balance. Or maybe it won't, Peter will stay in our universe and Walternate will raise the baby to lead their army to come and destroy ours. :confused0006:

[tricked]

Concerning mass, balance and energy, is faux-Livia's baby the key to balancing the two verses? When Peter was taken the alt-verse was upset, since this new baby shares half the DNA of Peter maybe it will right the balance. Or maybe it won't, Peter will stay in our universe and Walternate will raise the baby to lead their army to come and destroy ours. :confused0006: Here's a thought:

So long as Peter and Olivia are together, and Fauxlivia is preggers ... then Peter and Olivia can never have a baby. It is the trade off .... a Peter offspring in Redverse, while he gets to be with Olivia in Blue.

If Fauxbaby dies, then Olivia can be pregnant from their recent romp ... BUT ... Peter will end up with Fauxlivia in the long run lol :)

[chaosnovaxz]

Perhaps in our universe they had a large container full of blocks that equaled the mass of two children? :P

[tricked]

Perhaps in our universe they had a large container full of blocks that equaled the mass of two children? :P LEGO is stolen alterverse tech .... :)

[BadInfluence]

I think you guys, like I said in a similar thread in the Immortality subforum, are taking the concept and running way too far with it. Balance can only exist at time 0, from there different choices, or dumb luck, create different paths for the two universes.

The whole why does altBoyles needs to be the same mass as altOlivia for the transfer to work out has nothing to do with balance. Rewatch The Man from the Other Side (Season 2 Episode 19), in it Walter and Peter explain in quite a lot of detail the concept of transferring objects between universes (in that case Ballie's Monte Carlo)

Would you prefer the time being spent discussing a legitimate scientific topic be used to create a bunch more "We hate babygate" threads?

[ikkokusenkin]

I think that thinking in terms of mass is slightly misleading because
1. mass and energy are interchangeable
2. mass is destroyed (converted into energy) all the time e.g., in nuclear reactors.
So, in a contest between mass and energy, energy always 'wins.' I find it it more helpful to think in terms of energy (although it's not always as intuitive).

Another good reason is that when we think in terms of mass, we automatically think of things in literal terms.
For instance, if A and B have kids in this universe, they cannot be childless in the other one. I think the lack of the children's mass in the other universe is balanced by:
1. another couple childless in this universe has kids over there to compensate (I think someone pointed this out in the thread). OR
2. maybe the missing mass of the children in that universe is compensated by extra mass of, say, animals or plants or machinery (I think fragaria pointed this out in the thread). OR
3. maybe the missing mass is in the form of excess energy in that universe. In which case, there wouldn't be anything tangible that you could see. (This is a good example of the fallacies of thinking in terms of mass.)
Perhaps this would be another example? (no offense to the poster, I'm just thinking out loud)

So long as Peter and Olivia are together, and Fauxlivia is preggers ... then Peter and Olivia can never have a baby. It is the trade off .... a Peter offspring in Redverse, while he gets to be with Olivia in Blue.Personally, I just don't think the balance they mean is this kind of one-to-one balance. Indeed, this is a very anthropocentric way of thinking about things. And it leads to conclusions like this:

That the human arrangement of mass matters more than other lifeforms. I just don't think this is a justifiable conclusion (although it makes us feel special LOL).
Maybe the correct way to think of it is that the net energy content of each universe must be preserved at all times. So, if you're transporting some mass out of one universe, you either replace it by
a. excess energy (equivalent to that mass). This is not possible because we cannot 'transmit' energy (unless you're thinking of beaming in microwaves or something LOL) and the energy involved even for a small object would be huge (E=m*(c^2)).
b. an equivalent mass.

So that explains

why would Walternate exchange Olivia's weight with most of Broyles?Unfortunately, it does not explain

There has already been so much shifting: Bell, the truck, Nina's arm(?), part of Jones (?), shapeshifters(?), parts of the device, Peter..... Maybe the writers were just lazy?

[tricked]

I think that thinking in terms of mass is slightly misleading because
1. mass and energy are interchangeable
2. mass is destroyed (converted into energy) all the time e.g., in nuclear reactors.
So, in a contest between mass and energy, energy always 'wins.' I find it it more helpful to think in terms of energy (although it's not always as intuitive).

Another good reason is that when we think in terms of mass, we automatically think of things in literal terms.
For instance, if A and B have kids in this universe, they cannot be childless in the other one. I think the lack of the children's mass in the other universe is balanced by:
1. another couple childless in this universe has kids over there to compensate (I think someone pointed this out in the thread). OR
2. maybe the missing mass of the children in that universe is compensated by extra mass of, say, animals or plants or machinery (I think fragaria pointed this out in the thread). OR
3. maybe the missing mass is in the form of excess energy in that universe. In which case, there wouldn't be anything tangible that you could see. (This is a good example of the fallacies of thinking in terms of mass.)
Perhaps this would be another example? (no offense to the poster, I'm just thinking out loud)
Personally, I just don't think the balance they mean is this kind of one-to-one balance. Indeed, this is a very anthropocentric way of thinking about things. And it leads to conclusions like this:
I just don't think this is a justifiable conclusion (although it makes us feel special LOL).
Maybe the correct way to think of it is that the net energy content of each universe must be preserved at all times. So, if you're transporting some mass out of one universe, you either replace it by
a. excess energy (equivalent to that mass). This is not possible because we cannot 'transmit' energy (unless you're thinking of beaming in microwaves or something LOL) and the energy involved even for a small object would be huge (E=m*(c^2)).
b. an equivalent mass.

So that explains
Unfortunately, it does not explain
Maybe the writers were just lazy? I don't think the writers are being lazy completely. So long as they include "energy" being more important than "mass for mass". They have to deviate from physicis in order to make a show possible and palatable.

And I think, imo, ultimatley that is what the theories surrounding the balance are going to start to incorporate. Your explanations and thoughts are great ... but there is an "opposites day" type of balance at play between the universes human beings. If they wanted to take it farther ... of course focussing on "human balance" is myopic. But it's a TV show.

No, I think they are going to incorporate "raw energy" more than mass, ultimately ... and that is why we are seeing this trend more and more to emotional power. Emotions are going to harness some kind of energy in order to bring a balance, so on and so forth. I think that much is clear from the hints as to how the device actually operates.

Now, addresing one of your points ... that you cannot transmit energy ... I might disagree. Quantum teleportation (assuming the two universes have some kind of entanglement at work) would be a work around, wouldn't it? In fact, it might not even be considere "transmitting" since it's taking place instantaneously.

[Joe Curwen]

I don't think the writers are being lazy completely. So long as they include "energy" being more important than "mass for mass". They have to deviate from physicis in order to make a show possible and palatable.



The way I took the rule was: relative momentum between the two universes must be preserved. So if you zing a 5000 pound truck going at 10 mph into the other universe, our universe can get the same back, or it can get something weighing 50,000 pounds back that isn't moving or it can get a 5 pound thing moving at 10,000 mph. The momentum exchange can be deferred, but it must be paid. The nice thing about the rule is that it makes it fun ad easy for the show people to do whatever they want.

Of course, the rule is so unimportant that they can't be bothered half the time to show continuity. And I can totally see their point. It's such a minor thing, really. On the other hand, people seem to place exaggerated importance on it and even think it has something to do with doubles or babies, for some unknown reason. Oh well.

--
Joe

[Duque de Osuna]

Ok, how about this one. When Olivia came back to our universe through the water tank(s), then wouldn't something of equal mass have to go from our universe to theirs. They had to send alt-Broyles to compensate for fauxlivia's mass when she went home, wouldn't the same be true to Olivia's return trip?

[Arco]

For some reason (and then the miracle happens?), Olivia's Kortexiphan Kid mode of travel does not seem to require the exchange of mass that the other methods do. Remember that the other three Kidz perished in the episode "Over There--Part I," and no attempt appears to have been made to balance out their living mass or the presence of their corpses, as far as I know. The presence of two Olivias & two Walters in the same universe at the same time you'd think would have been of some concern--and there was also an AU Nick Lane because Lincoln Lee recognized him, so there were, briefly, two Nicks as well. We have at least three methods of transport: The Kortexiphan Kidz; the diz-ray (or however you spell it) that David Robert Jones used; and the harmonic rods that Faux used. The writers have been a wee bit short on explanations.

[Joe Curwen]

For some reason (and then the miracle happens?), Olivia's Kortexiphan Kid mode of travel does not seem to require the exchange of mass that the other methods do.

Maybe, they've never said so and they've never shown it either. Ideally, the universes wouldn't care how you travelled - the mass or momentum is either in balance or it isn't. I think the reason they haven't nailed this down is that it just isn't important. In the few cases where they've maintained continuity with the rule, it was because they could do something exciting with it, such as having a building disappear or AltBroyles all cut up. Other than that, it is ignored, just like they ignore side effects from crossing over when it isn't convenient to show any.

--
Joe

[Duque de Osuna]

Maybe, they've never said so and they've never shown it either. Ideally, the universes wouldn't care how you travelled - the mass or momentum is either in balance or it isn't. I think the reason they haven't nailed this down is that it just isn't important. In the few cases where they've maintained continuity with the rule, it was because they could do something exciting with it, such as having a building disappear or AltBroyles all cut up. Other than that, it is ignored, just like they ignore side effects from crossing over when it isn't convenient to show any.

--
Joe

Yeah, that is what I figured. I guess certain allowances have to be made for the sake of the show.

[Dep]

I think you have to be careful that you don't miss the forest for the trees in this case.

Another point to consider is that if you take a word like "balance" and start applying absolutes to it like "mass for mass" or "effect for effect" you're going to run into all sorts of hypotheticals and problems.

I think a far better way to look at this is an equilibrium or homeostasis type concept where everything is in flux. Kind of like an ebb and flow sort of concept. It is much easier to comprehend and justify the actions in fringe that way rather than applying some sort emperical value to it.

Just my thoughts anyway.....:what:

[tricked]

Ok, how about this one. When Olivia came back to our universe through the water tank(s), then wouldn't something of equal mass have to go from our universe to theirs. They had to send alt-Broyles to compensate for fauxlivia's mass when she went home, wouldn't the same be true to Olivia's return trip? Well, Cortexikids lose some kind of energy that they "emit" when they hop over to the other side. It's why Olivia needed all of them to help her initially, and why Bell's energy was needed for the return trip. So, I think in theory, each time she hops over she loses energy (calories perhaps) from her own metabolism, since she is the "machine" doing all the work. So if she exerts energy in one universe, that energy is dissipated in that universe, while she appears in the other universe with that deficit.

Maybe lol :)


I think the reason they haven't nailed this down is that it just isn't important. In the few cases where they've maintained continuity with the rule, it was because they could do something exciting with it, such as having a building disappear or AltBroyles all cut up. Other than that, it is ignored, just like they ignore side effects from crossing over when it isn't convenient to show any.

--
Joe Agreed. :happy15:


I think you have to be careful that you don't miss the forest for the trees in this case.

Another point to consider is that if you take a word like "balance" and start applying absolutes to it like "mass for mass" or "effect for effect" you're going to run into all sorts of hypotheticals and problems.

I think a far better way to look at this is an equilibrium or homeostasis type concept where everything is in flux. Kind of like an ebb and flow sort of concept. It is much easier to comprehend and justify the actions in fringe that way rather than applying some sort emperical value to it.

Just my thoughts anyway.....:what: And I still think the "forest for the trees" has to do with how the balance was upset in the first place.

Remember, it was the Observer being noticed which was his "mistake". When he got noticed, it introduced a new set of probabilities, so on and so forth. Walternate missed the mark with the cure, Walter intervened, then the Observers had to get personally involved to correct the mistake (Reiden Lake, etc and so forth).

But that initial mistake, was the Observer getting noticed. That is when the balance was upset ... BEFORE Walter crossed over and took Peter.

It was the act of the observer getting noticed, which caused the future to change and the new probabilities to materialize. Thus, things became out of balance ... everything else after the fact could be said to be the "decoherence" of those probabilities into a coherent set of events in space and time, of sorts.

I think this is a key to understanding the "balance". Not mass for mass, energy for energy, 50 ton bricks moving 10 mph, getting laid and knocking chicks up, etc and so forth. That is all the aftermath of the decoherence of the probabilities that should have never existed in the first place.

So one would have to ask then ... how does a set of probabilities get introduced into an environment when they weren't there before?

I think, concerning Fringe ... this question was answered in August. A living being introduced them with his choices ... August the Observer ... and the only way to remove those probabilities and bring "balance" again, was to remove the source of the choices. August had to be removed from the equation.

I think ultimately, September should have been removed from the equation ;). Balance would have been achieved. And I'm wondering if we will see just this twist and turn in the show.

Because if you think about it ... what the Observers tried to do in order to "course correct" in August, was initially get rid of Christine Hollis. But that didn't happen ... August got killed. And we seemingly never heard of another problem with his choice again. The girl lived, all is apparently rosy and dandy with that "section" of spacetime. Yet the Peter/Walter section is a complete fustercluck. Is it because September hasn't been removed?

[Mutsie]

Both universes have their own balance and as long as you don't mess with it than there is nothing wrong and the balance of both universes doesn't have to be equal.

BUT
If you remove something from the other universe than the balance got interrupted and therefore you need to "send" something back with equal weight otherwise you get the imbalance and what happens now is the balance {Walter taken Peter} has been interrupted and you get a chain-re-action what now is the case....

:observer::tiphat:

[Dep]

Well, Cortexikids lose some kind of energy that they "emit" when they hop over to the other side. It's why Olivia needed all of them to help her initially, and why Bell's energy was needed for the return trip. So, I think in theory, each time she hops over she loses energy (calories perhaps) from her own metabolism, since she is the "machine" doing all the work. So if she exerts energy in one universe, that energy is dissipated in that universe, while she appears in the other universe with that deficit.

Maybe lol :)

Agreed. :happy15:

And I still think the "forest for the trees" has to do with how the balance was upset in the first place.

Remember, it was the Observer being noticed which was his "mistake". When he got noticed, it introduced a new set of probabilities, so on and so forth. Walternate missed the mark with the cure, Walter intervened, then the Observers had to get personally involved to correct the mistake (Reiden Lake, etc and so forth).

But that initial mistake, was the Observer getting noticed. That is when the balance was upset ... BEFORE Walter crossed over and took Peter.

It was the act of the observer getting noticed, which caused the future to change and the new probabilities to materialize. Thus, things became out of balance ... everything else after the fact could be said to be the "decoherence" of those probabilities into a coherent set of events in space and time, of sorts.

I think this is a key to understanding the "balance". Not mass for mass, energy for energy, 50 ton bricks moving 10 mph, getting laid and knocking chicks up, etc and so forth. That is all the aftermath of the decoherence of the probabilities that should have never existed in the first place.

So one would have to ask then ... how does a set of probabilities get introduced into an environment when they weren't there before?

I think, concerning Fringe ... this question was answered in August. A living being introduced them with his choices ... August the Observer ... and the only way to remove those probabilities and bring "balance" again, was to remove the source of the choices. August had to be removed from the equation.

I think ultimately, September should have been removed from the equation ;). Balance would have been achieved. And I'm wondering if we will see just this twist and turn in the show.

Because if you think about it ... what the Observers tried to do in order to "course correct" in August, was initially get rid of Christine Hollis. But that didn't happen ... August got killed. And we seemingly never heard of another problem with his choice again. The girl lived, all is apparently rosy and dandy with that "section" of spacetime. Yet the Peter/Walter section is a complete fustercluck. Is it because September hasn't been removed?

Hmmm all good points but I still think the whole idea with Fringe is a "tug-of-war" type scenario with each of the universes teetering on the edge of being off-balance. By having these universes in a state of flux the only real point at which something goes pear shaped is when there is a really abnormally powerful event, such as what happened with the observer originally.

[ikkokusenkin]

No, I think they are going to incorporate "raw energy" more than mass, ultimately ... and that is why we are seeing this trend more and more to emotional power. Emotions are going to harness some kind of energy in order to bring a balance, so on and so forth. I think that much is clear from the hints as to how the device actually operates.
That's a really interesting point. Thanks!


Now, addresing one of your points ... that you cannot transmit energy ... I might disagree. Quantum teleportation (assuming the two universes have some kind of entanglement at work) would be a work around, wouldn't it? In fact, it might not even be considere "transmitting" since it's taking place instantaneously.
Hmmm... I don't know a lot about quantum teleportation but my understanding is that if two distinct particles are entangled, any change in one instantaneously (not even taking the infinitesimal amount of time it takes light to get from one particle to the other) affects the other. I don't know if the energy expended at both ends is always the same (although, intuitively, I'd guess it should be). In any case, teleportation always involves two distinct particles that are already entangled (sort of like complements).
From whatever I've seen on Fringe, the writers don't mean this kind of transport. For example, when Olivia goes from our universe to the other, there's no quantum-entangled complement of her already present in the other universe. Rather, it's more like a standard "getting from home to the bus stand" kind of transportation where the same object moves from point A to point B (point A being in one universe and B in another).
Of course, the Fringe writers could very well have meant Star Trek type teleportation (aka "beam me up, Scotty") where the (purported) process actually buffers the original object while creating a whole new copy of it at the destination and then destroys the buffered version when it determines that the copy has been successfully created. Thus, it doesn't need an extant complement of the object being transported.

[ikkokusenkin]

Remember, it was the Observer being noticed which was his "mistake". When he got noticed, it introduced a new set of probabilities, so on and so forth. Walternate missed the mark with the cure, Walter intervened, then the Observers had to get personally involved to correct the mistake (Reiden Lake, etc and so forth).

But that initial mistake, was the Observer getting noticed. That is when the balance was upset ... BEFORE Walter crossed over and took Peter.

It was the act of the observer getting noticed, which caused the future to change and the new probabilities to materialize. Thus, things became out of balance ... everything else after the fact could be said to be the "decoherence" of those probabilities into a coherent set of events in space and time, of sorts.
This here's a really interesting point you've made. I've been thinking the same way for a very long time. The screw-up started with September and not with Walter's crossing over.



I think this is a key to understanding the "balance". Not mass for mass, energy for energy, 50 ton bricks moving 10 mph, getting laid and knocking chicks up, etc and so forth. That is all the aftermath of the decoherence of the probabilities that should have never existed in the first place.

While that's as may be, I'm not so sure that accepting September is the original screw-up is, in itself, the "key" to understanding the whole mess because it still doesn't tell us anything about what is being balanced how between all the different "decoherences of probabilities." It's a good answer for the why (or "the forest and not the trees," if you like) but not for the what and the how, I think.



So one would have to ask then ... how does a set of probabilities get introduced into an environment when they weren't there before?

I think, concerning Fringe ... this question was answered in August. A living being introduced them with his choices ... August the Observer ... and the only way to remove those probabilities and bring "balance" again, was to remove the source of the choices. August had to be removed from the equation.

I think ultimately, September should have been removed from the equation ;). Balance would have been achieved. And I'm wondering if we will see just this twist and turn in the show.

Because if you think about it ... what the Observers tried to do in order to "course correct" in August, was initially get rid of Christine Hollis. But that didn't happen ... August got killed. And we seemingly never heard of another problem with his choice again. The girl lived, all is apparently rosy and dandy with that "section" of spacetime. Yet the Peter/Walter section is a complete fustercluck. Is it because September hasn't been removed?
Three things:
1. It's interesting to note that the Observers are not omniscient (I think they even say so themselves in one way or another in the show). For one, they cannot predict the effects of their own actions with complete certainty. If they could, September would never have stood there in the open in Walternate's lab when he was searching for a cure.
2. What if September's getting spotted was a prerequisite for his being there in the first place -- but he (and the other Observers) just don't know it yet? For instance, it could be destiny that our Walter happened to be spying on Walternate at the precise instant he (Walternate) sees September. Only this way could our Walter know
a. that Walternate missed the cure, and
b. how to make the cure.
3. I don't see how removing September solves our problems (were you joking about this? I couldn't tell. :)). Removing September will only change the actions he would have done in the future. It would do nothing to undo his mistake (of being seen by Walternate at that crucial moment) which is already in the past. Just as you say, killing August did not change the fact that Christine Hollis continues to live with no problems. Similarly, killing September will mean that things will only continue the way they are.

[tricked]

That's a really interesting point. Thanks!

Hmmm... I don't know a lot about quantum teleportation but my understanding is that if two distinct particles are entangled, any change in one instantaneously (not even taking the infinitesimal amount of time it takes light to get from one particle to the other) affects the other. I don't know if the energy expended at both ends is always the same (although, intuitively, I'd guess it should be). In any case, teleportation always involves two distinct particles that are already entangled (sort of like complements).
From whatever I've seen on Fringe, the writers don't mean this kind of transport. For example, when Olivia goes from our universe to the other, there's no quantum-entangled complement of her already present in the other universe. Rather, it's more like a standard "getting from home to the bus stand" kind of transportation where the same object moves from point A to point B (point A being in one universe and B in another).

I think you have basically described quantum entanglement ... but teleportation involves additional "data" being "added" to one of those entangled particles, and thus reflecting instantaneously in the other. So, if we have particles A and A1, and they are separated by 10 miles, let's say ... and I want to transmit data B ... but I don't want to send B ten miles, all I do is "add" B to A (now B-A), and then A1 will reflect this change by becoming B-A1. So I essentially transmitted B's "energy" from one to the other in some form. This is why I mentioned this as a possible way to transmit energy. I wasn't really implying this is how Olivia traveled or anything ... more the concept of transmitting energy in a non classical sense.


This here's a really interesting point you've made. I've been thinking the same way for a very long time. The screw-up started with September and not with Walter's crossing over.


While that's as may be, I'm not so sure that accepting September is the original screw-up is, in itself, the "key" to understanding the whole mess because it still doesn't tell us anything about what is being balanced how between all the different "decoherences of probabilities." It's a good answer for the why (or "the forest and not the trees," if you like) but not for the what and the how, I think. I think I know what you are saying, and I think if we realize that technically nothing IS being balanced ... we will undderstand more the root of what actually might take place to correct things.

Because if you think about it, I don't see the Observers concretely balancing anything yet. They are still HOPING that things will work out. Before September's mistake, though, there was no need to hope. There was no imbalance.

Now, I think you made a good point. Suppose it really was Sept. getting noticed that was the mistake. That tell's us a "why" ... but not a "what" or "how".

Although I think we might know those answers.

The "what", which needs to be balanced, are the universes which now have an "excess" of probabilities. They had an initial quanta, if you will ... and now, they have more than they should have had. They went off into directions they shouldn't have.

And so, the "how" ... would be to remove that excess of probabilities. But the Observers obviously don't know how to do that, so I posit. Because they keep focussing on changing the probabilities, and trying to balance them out ... instead of simply removing the probabilities that they introduced.

Now, one might ask ..."how do you remove probabilities? They are not concrete objects that you simply discard." ..... HOWEVER ..... we do know what introduced them. September. Had he not been there, there would have been no need for him to interfere further. Walter would have done whatever Walter was going to do. Same goes for Walternate.

So I still think that excess of probabilities exists, because September exists. He is the catalyst "carrying them around" so to speak. Eliminate him, and perhaps you eliminate the probabilties that should never have been introduced when he himself got Observed. Either that, or perhaps eliminate Walter. But I think it boils down to September.

So the "what" and the "how" can perhaps be answered by continuing to look directly at the catalyst (Sept.) and EXACTLY what he and the observers claimed was the mistake.



Three things:
1. It's interesting to note that the Observers are not omniscient (I think they even say so themselves in one way or another in the show). For one, they cannot predict the effects of their own actions with complete certainty. If they could, September would never have stood there in the open in Walternate's lab when he was searching for a cure.
2. What if September's getting spotted was a prerequisite for his being there in the first place -- but he (and the other Observers) just don't know it yet? For instance, it could be destiny that our Walter happened to be spying on Walternate at the precise instant he (Walternate) sees September. Only this way could our Walter know
a. that Walternate missed the cure, and
b. how to make the cure.
3. I don't see how removing September solves our problems (were you joking about this? I couldn't tell. :)). Removing September will only change the actions he would have done in the future. It would do nothing to undo his mistake (of being seen by Walternate at that crucial moment) which is already in the past. Just as you say, killing August did not change the fact that Christine Hollis continues to live with no problems. Similarly, killing September will mean that things will only continue the way they are. Okay .... two things:

* Yes, I was serious about removing September, although I don't see that as a realistic plot device in the show lol. HOWEVER ... I think if you remove him, things will continue the way they are ... BUT ... they will begin to be in balance. THAT is my point. You remove a critical aspect to the experiment which causes the decayed measurement ... the interfering Observer. Remove him, and essentially Schrodingers Cat goes back to being alive and dead at the same time ... because there is no Observer there to collapse the wave function. See? Now ... will the universes continue to collapse? Yes. Walter's choices caused that. THAT IS NOT THE BALANCE problem, as far as the Observers SHOULD be concerned. They are focussing on the wrong aspect as well ... the choices being made. The fireflies. They need to focus on the intangible probabilities. Just like with Christine Hollis, they were going to remove the probabilities all together by killing her. However August died instead, and thus, she was allowed to live. They removed the Observer who caused the imbalance in the first place ... and things returned to balance. And remember, I'm talking balance now in terms of this: not matter for matter, or energy for energy, but probabilities for probabilities. Like 50/50. Remember Walter and his coin toss? lol :)

* Now, bringing up destiny involves what I think the show is ultimately going to have as the overpowering aspect to even the Observers. They are slaves to it, just as everyone else it to a degree. Peter and Olivia, etc and so forth. The question then becomes, is destiny powered by some other intelligent force (like William Bell, or the FP) ... or some conceptual force (like love, emotion, "mother nature"), etc and so forth ...

[vesh1717]

I think I can summarize.

The writers lost track of the balance thing LOOOONNNGG ago. So there is no point in trying to figure it out.

[MaDdster]

Hadn't Walter explained it before that balance it achieved based on mass and nothing else? Or something like that at least? So that means that yes Alice and Derek could have children over there as long as something of similar mass is over here regardless of what it is.

I remember this as well. I also remember the episode where Walter's car replaced something of similar mass in the other universe. That was in season one, I believe. However, I think he explained about the mass not too long ago in this season.

[tricked]

I think I can summarize.

The writers lost track of the balance thing LOOOONNNGG ago. So there is no point in trying to figure it out. Yeah maybe lol :).


I remember this as well. I also remember the episode where Walter's car replaced something of similar mass in the other universe. That was in season one, I believe. However, I think he explained about the mass not too long ago in this season. But again ... I think the mass for mass thing has to do with the way dimensional travel takes place, NOT balance. It all depends on how one travels between universes.

Olivia, and seemingly the shapeshifters, do not utilize the mass for mass thing. That mass-for-mass stuff is a different topic, and not exactly related to the "mystical balance" I think ;)

[ikkokusenkin]

The "what", which needs to be balanced, are the universes which now have an "excess" of probabilities. They had an initial quanta, if you will ... and now, they have more than they should have had. They went off into directions they shouldn't have.

And so, the "how" ... would be to remove that excess of probabilities. But the Observers obviously don't know how to do that, so I posit. Because they keep focussing on changing the probabilities, and trying to balance them out ... instead of simply removing the probabilities that they introduced.

Now, one might ask ..."how do you remove probabilities? They are not concrete objects that you simply discard." ..... HOWEVER ..... we do know what introduced them. September. Had he not been there, there would have been no need for him to interfere further. Walter would have done whatever Walter was going to do. Same goes for Walternate.

So I still think that excess of probabilities exists, because September exists. He is the catalyst "carrying them around" so to speak. Eliminate him, and perhaps you eliminate the probabilties that should never have been introduced when he himself got Observed. Either that, or perhaps eliminate Walter. But I think it boils down to September.

So the "what" and the "how" can perhaps be answered by continuing to look directly at the catalyst (Sept.) and EXACTLY what he and the observers claimed was the mistake.
Very interesting post you've made. To be honest, I never thought of probabilities as being in 'balance' before (of course, as you said, this is not 'balance' in the sense of making things equal -- like a weight balance, for example. And, in itself, that's an insight that should be kept in mind whenever people talk about the "balance of the universes" -- we're not talking about a child for a child or a car for a car etc).
Anyway, you have an interesting theory about probabilities having to be balanced.

But I don't know if I agree with your assessment of how the probabilities can be balanced (by eliminating September/Walter). One of the main problems in comparing this situation with Schrödinger's Cat is that
a. the cat being alive or dead depends only on the observation of one individual, and
b. Schrödinger's thought experiment discounts the cat's observation of itself as being a factor in determining whether it is dead or alive (presumably because it is not a conscious being? Someone correct me if I'm wrong about why the cat itself is considered unimportant in this context.). However, the Fringe world has million of conscious observers (in the Schrödinger's Cat sense of the word) -- every human being in the Fringe world. So even if we knocked September off, the original wave function couldn't collapse -- simply because the original wave function doesn't exist anymore because every act of conscious observation made by every human soul has contributed (superposed might be a better word) its own wave function and changed it in the process.
What do you think?

[tricked]

Very interesting post you've made. To be honest, I never thought of probabilities as being in 'balance' before (of course, as you said, this is not 'balance' in the sense of making things equal -- like a weight balance, for example. And, in itself, that's an insight that should be kept in mind whenever people talk about the "balance of the universes" -- we're not talking about a child for a child or a car for a car etc).
Anyway, you have an interesting theory about probabilities having to be balanced.

But I don't know if I agree with your assessment of how the probabilities can be balanced (by eliminating September/Walter). One of the main problems in comparing this situation with Schrödinger's Cat is that
a. the cat being alive or dead depends only on the observation of one individual, and ... and this is a good point, except that when talking about the Observers they seemingly act as one individual. The exception being August, when he forsaw things at the others did not (due to his love for C. Hollis).

However ... what was the result of his "vision" which the others were not capable of seeing? He was killed. He was "expunged" from the hive-mind, so to speak.

So while I don't necessarily think the ONLY way to get rid of the probabilities is to eliminate September lol .... I do think SOMETHING needs to be "expunged". Just like John Scott from Olivia's mind. The two inhabiting the same mind, caused a "breakdown" in Olivia which the mind could not handle. It had to expel one or the other, and in the end ... Olivia won obviously. But they did not live harmoniously together in one universe. It was too "full" of probabilities. It was only supposed to containt the probabilities of one person ... Olivia, and those whom were in her destiny ;). NOT John Scott, in the fashion in which he remained.

Thus it is with the universe ... they have an excess that needs to be expunged. I kind of envision them tossing that "excess" back and forth like a hot potato between all the key players connected to it. But something has to happen with that excess hot potato ... it doesn't belong anywhere. Ultimately, this might fall on Peter .... as he claims he doesn't belong anywhere :). He might "embody" all the excess probabilities. Or at least, he and the Observers (assuming they can still see them and are responsible for them).


b. Schrödinger's thought experiment discounts the cat's observation of itself as being a factor in determining whether it is dead or alive (presumably because it is not a conscious being? Someone correct me if I'm wrong about why the cat itself is considered unimportant in this context.). However, the Fringe world has million of conscious observers (in the Schrödinger's Cat sense of the word) -- every human being in the Fringe world. So even if we knocked September off, the original wave function couldn't collapse -- simply because the original wave function doesn't exist anymore because every act of conscious observation made by every human soul has contributed (superposed might be a better word) its own wave function and changed it in the process.
What do you think? Yes ... the cat's observation of itself isn't an issue. HOWEVER ... the cat's observation of the OBSERVER is. Because it can only notice the Observer, when the Observer has "opened the box" so to speak.

When Walter/Walternate consciously noticed the Observer, the box was opened. Wave function collapse took place .... while at the same time, a new set of probabilities took over. And those involved intertwining the Observer WITH the thing being observed. The fates were now intertwined in a way that was different than they had been before. NEW PROBABILITIES. Just like when August loved Christine ... it bound he and Christine in a way that no one else could see or forsee. Their fates were intertwined, and a balance needed to be made. Christine Hollis was allowed to live, because of August. So, August dies, presumably so that she may live and collapse a wave function of probabilities before they "got out of hand".

In a similar fashion, when September was observered, he essentially became in the same scenario as the cat. His fat was intertwined ... in a sort of closed system. However, if the other Observers were conscious of the same possibilities, then their fates would be intertwined as well ... but since they weren't, I think they are still "on the outside" so to speak. They are still very much Observers in the experiment, and September is now part of the experiment due to his mistake. Unless he has found a way to correct his participation in it .... somehow ....

But, if you remove September .... and all the observers for that matter .... you are correct in saying that the Fringe universes are full of conscious observers. But that's irrelevant in one regard. There are no longer outside Observers. The only ones, are the ones that are within the box ... and collectively, ALL of them are the cat. Get it? It's not just Walter who is the cat. It's ALL of the universes. The Observers, collectively, are the outside Observers, looking at the box. The box is closed, so long as we are unaware of them consciously. Once that changes, so to do they. They become part of the experiment ... measuring the wave function collapse. So if you remove the Observers, what you at least do, is "close the lid on the box". We would not notice this change .... becasue we have lived inside the box our whole lives. And remember, the box isn't the crossing between universes and all of that. Not necessarily. The box, is the veil that separates us from the Observers ;). So long as we don't interact with the Observers in the experiment, our wave function does what it was going to do naturally ... the universe is in a multiverse of "all states at once". But, once we interact with them .... the box gets opened, and collapse takes place. Multiverse turns into Universe ... sort of like many threads of string converging on a single point now. That single point is the needle, of which the Observers are holding.

Get rid of them, and it's possible our universes will still collapse and only "one" will be the victor, yada yada. BUT .... ultimately, the Multiverse will remain and intact and probabilities will expand the way they were meant to perhaps in a cyclic fashion. Does that make sense? The tree that fell in the forest would still fall ... but no one would be around to hear it anylonger, and this is vital for the multiverse to exist.

I seriously don't know if Fringe will take this course of POV or not .... but I still think, that the "imbalance" is due to the Observers becoming part of the experiment. That is why a deus ex machina is needed .... a "god" to come in, and be the Observer who is observing the Observers and US collectively. If this doesn't happen, the only way to restore balance is to get rid of us, or the Obsevers me thinx :).

Anyway, I know I've rambled .... but it's just a theory. I might honestly change my mind tomorrow on this lol. It's just fun to think about ;)