I am utterly lost.

[qinen]

What is this time-loop?

What did Walter figure out in 2026 and told Peter that led him to come out of the machine and bring the two universes together?

Basically, the last 15minutes of the episode for me was just mind-numbing. I had no idea what was going on.

Can anyone explain to me what happened?
Thanks.

[Gnarus]

The machine Peter was in was found broken into many different parts and buried underground millions of years ago. The First People were rumored to have built this machine and everybody assumed that The First People had lived before the Human race came into existence.

However, that had troubled Walter. So while he was locked away in prison for years, he had time to think on The First People. It was not until he was given the information that the wormhole, which had been closed in Central Park thanks to Amber, led back nearly 200 million years ago that he finally put all the pieces together.

The First People did not live millions of years ago, but rather lived sometime in the near future. In fact, The First People were most likely a subgroup of whomever existed in 2026. Not only that, but he realized he was the one who built the machine, he was the one who sent it back in time.

But he couldn't possibly just NOT sent it back in time. That would create a paradox -- if he didn't send the machine back, then none of the events that led him to decide not to send the machine back would have happed and thus, he would have sent the machine back -- and it simply is impossible to create such a paradox. He had already sent it back, it had already been used by Peter, and he would have to send it back again. So the machine is a constant, it cannot simply be removed from the timeline.

The choice of what Peter could DO with the machine is not a constant though. It's a variable. He could destroy our universe, he could destroy the Red universe, or he could bring them together in some fashion -- which is what he decided to do.

His choice of what to do with the machine would not cause a paradox, but it would spin itself off into another outcome for the future.

I hope that helps.

[Firefly]

The machine Peter was in was found broken into many different parts and buried underground millions of years ago. The First People were rumored to have built this machine and everybody assumed that The First People had lived before the Human race came into existence.

However, that had troubled Walter. So while he was locked away in prison for years, he had time to think on The First People. It was not until he was given the information that the wormhole, which had been closed in Central Park thanks to Amber, led back nearly 200 million years ago that he finally put all the pieces together.

The First People did not live millions of years ago, but rather lived sometime in the near future. In fact, The First People were most likely a subgroup of whomever existed in 2026. Not only that, but he realized he was the one who built the machine, he was the one who sent it back in time.

But he couldn't possibly just NOT sent it back in time. That would create a paradox -- if he didn't send the machine back, then none of the events that led him to decide not to send the machine back would have happed and thus, he would have sent the machine back -- and it simply is impossible to create such a paradox. He had already sent it back, it had already been used by Peter, and he would have to send it back again. So the machine is a constant, it cannot simply be removed from the timeline.

The choice of what Peter could DO with the machine is not a constant though. It's a variable. He could destroy our universe, he could destroy the Red universe, or he could bring them together in some fashion -- which is what he decided to do.

His choice of what to do with the machine would not cause a paradox, but it would spin itself off into another outcome for the future.

I hope that helps.

Thank you for this, I didn't completely understand it either

[Omniscient_Jay]

The machine Peter was in was found broken into many different parts and buried underground millions of years ago. The First People were rumored to have built this machine and everybody assumed that The First People had lived before the Human race came into existence.

However, that had troubled Walter. So while he was locked away in prison for years, he had time to think on The First People. It was not until he was given the information that the wormhole, which had been closed in Central Park thanks to Amber, led back nearly 200 million years ago that he finally put all the pieces together.

The First People did not live millions of years ago, but rather lived sometime in the near future. In fact, The First People were most likely a subgroup of whomever existed in 2026. Not only that, but he realized he was the one who built the machine, he was the one who sent it back in time.

But he couldn't possibly just NOT sent it back in time. That would create a paradox -- if he didn't send the machine back, then none of the events that led him to decide not to send the machine back would have happed and thus, he would have sent the machine back -- and it simply is impossible to create such a paradox. He had already sent it back, it had already been used by Peter, and he would have to send it back again. So the machine is a constant, it cannot simply be removed from the timeline.

The choice of what Peter could DO with the machine is not a constant though. It's a variable. He could destroy our universe, he could destroy the Red universe, or he could bring them together in some fashion -- which is what he decided to do.

His choice of what to do with the machine would not cause a paradox, but it would spin itself off into another outcome for the future.

I hope that helps.

This is, more or less, what the episode implied.

Walter and his allies (Ella, Astrid, however else helped) retrieved the Vacuum components sometime during or after 2026, made the Peter Prophecy Manuscript (the one with the DNA sequence background), and created possibly everything else concerning the First People (the Number Stations, the Ancient Manuscripts that the Weiss lineage would eventually find, etc.). He then either sent everything through the Central Park Wormhole (which actually leads 250 million years, not just 200), or he physically traveled in the distant past and set up everything there himself.

However, it was not mentioned if Walter was indeed the one who actually built the Device or if he simply sent the pieces through the Wormhole (if it is the latter, then things become much more complicated, as it means the pieces came from somewhere else outside the Time-Loop ...).

The paradoxical nature of the Time-Loop has been explained in Mr. Gnarus' post.

As an aside, I'm starting to believe that the machine never sent Peter's consciousness to the future; rather, the whole Future angle was merely a flashforward showing what happened after Peter activates the Vacuum in 2011 within the current Time-Loop (created by Walter).

They never showed how Walter sent Peter's consciousness back through time; presumably, this happens offscreen after the point where Walter explains to Peter the nature of the First People. But we know it worked, because Peter made a different choice in 2011. And I guess the reason we saw the 2026 Future just after Peter entered the machine was because Future Peter suffered a rather large blow to the head; he was momentarily aware of his 2011 self in the Vacuum, whose influence spans all of time and space. That's why he forgot everything about the Machine and returned to his normal, Future self a few hours later.

I think it is safe to assume that we continue to see glimpses of the 2026 future in S4 to see how Walter and Peter and the others did all this (along with what happened to Peter and whether the two Fringe teams will come to an understanding).

[Gnarus]

No, the machine never sent Peter's consciousness anywhere, you're right with that. But sometime between 2026 and 2040, Walter built some kind of machine that was able to pull the consciousness of 2011 Peter to 2026. It was, after all, what they were discussing doing right before 2011 Peter's consciousness went back to 2011.

(Gah! Two universes AND two points in time now makes it so hard to name the person you're talking about!)

[Omniscient_Jay]

No, the machine never sent Peter's consciousness anywhere, you're right with that. But sometime between 2026 and 2040, Walter built some kind of machine that was able to pull the consciousness of 2011 Peter to 2026. It was, after all, what they were discussing doing right before 2011 Peter's consciousness went back to 2011.

(Gah! Two universes AND two points in time now makes it so hard to name the person you're talking about!)

Ah, yes, I remember this now.

I guess it was merely convenient that 2011 Peter's consciousness was drawn to 2026 at a moment where 2026 Peter was reeling from the Orpheum blastwave (made by Moreau and his men). Perhaps Walter's machine chose to send Peter's past consciousness to the point in time where his future consciousness was the most receptive (the blast point).

Interesting things we have here...

[VagendasEndHere]

His choice of what to do with the machine would not cause a paradox, but it would spin itself off into another outcome for the future.

I hope that helps.

Okay, so this is going to make things even more confusing than they are already but um... this whole idea about "spinning off into another outcome for the future..." does that not sound a lot like how alternate/parallel universes work? The whole idea of parallel universes/multiverses (i.e., in theoretical physics, not just in Fringe) is that there is potentially an infinite number of universes - one for EVERY. SINGLE. action made...if you want to read into more depth with this, go to Wikipedia So in other words, even something as trivial as the fact I have my TV on right now, and moderately low volume, on a certain channel - whether it's on or off, its volume, the channel...and so on and so on...all variables, and every possibility has its own universe.

Now I'm not at all implying that Fringe is going to add in a concept of infinite universes! LOL my point is, wouldn't this logic imply that there is a universe for each choice that Peter makes? And hence one for each possible outcome of his decision while in the machine? (Not sure how many outcomes there are, but I'm assuming you can count them on one hand....)

Now the fact that we are already dealing with two universes right now... makes this all almost incomprehensible...but that "spin itself off into another outcome for the future" thing that Gnarus said immediately reminded me of the theory of multiple universes...

Oh, BTW, yeah this is my second post here...I've been creeping these forums for MONTHS now...maybe even about a year...LOL. So I figured I should sign up

[psychopathicROC]

I think there was an original timeline, where Walter and Bellie went into the other universe and started the war; Maybe what we are seeing in the Blue Verse originally happened in the red verse; Bellie, Walter and Olivia (with the cortexiphan trials) cross over; Peter and Olivia fall in love, peace is made, Bellie Walternate and Peter build the machine; and save the Universe. All the damage and attacks are undone; Everything is fine. No First People, no time Travel. It is a momentous occaision, Peter's survival, leading to the saving of the Universe(s).

The Observers mess this up, and they can't fix it, but they can make small changes to put this back on course. This leads to the Observer saving Peter and telling Walter to keep him in his Universe. This starts the iteration of events that leads to what we see... except the first time around, Bellie lives, and the war is faught; They build the machine and destroy the red universe. This still does not require First People or time travel - yet. This is where they first discover the entanglement of the Universes, and Walter and Peter discover the wormhole. They escape back to the past before the death of the World, escaping cataclysm, and become the First People. The Machine parts become buried, but Walter leaves clues in the past, knowing that he and Peter will be able to find and decipher them and cause a new timeline, cheating fate. This cycles however many times it takes to get to the current point in the time loop.

This causes no paradoxes, gives an origin for all events, and is simple time travel causing changes to the entangled dual universe.

[Doe]

Bridge. bridge. Sounds like an important word.

In the game of Bridge, there's covert communication through bidding and the play of the hand. It's like the time-travel works, but only through covert communication, because they might need the Machine to be used in a different way than they intended.

That's the problem with loops.