My Best Guess....

[Moviemath]

Ahh, lateral thinking. Refreshing.

I liked the idea of 'bringing the consciousness forward' as something that originated in the future and was sent back in time only to come forward again

... What happened to the conjoined Peter (Peter(n-1)‘s consciousness in Peter(n)‘s body). That is a tough nut to crack. I guess the Observer’s words bear repeating, “You were right they don’t remember Peter.” To which September replied, “How could they, he never existed. He served his purpose.” Certainly, Peter(n-1) did not exist as a person in ‘n’ time, thus he never existed but Peter(n)? I guess being bumped out of the Do-loop (aka time-loop) means … means what? Does it mean that the Peters(n, n-1, n-2, n-3,…) as a necessary cause (his purpose) could only exist inside the loop? There is also in my scenario the question of what happened with Peter(n)’s consciousness. Was his consciousness uploaded to the machine even as Peter(n-1)’s was downloaded? I think these are questions for which we need more information. Like another episode full… or more!
. . .

And there it is.

[Aside: Could it be possible that Peter(n-1)'s consciousness is cohabiting Peter(n)'s brain/mind similar to the Olivia/Bellie scenario?]


It's actually taken me a long time to figure this out, even longer to admit and come to terms with

- that in order for Fringe to thoroughly satisfy:

One must be completely prepared and willing to buy into the Implausibility of it all.

Science fantasy is a sub section of science fiction but not all science fiction would necessarily be categorized as science fantasy. And there the distinction must be made -
Fringe is science fantasy.

We could, for example, continue ad infinitum with the iterations of 2026 Peter(n) never existing because Peter(n) has been 'erased' further suggesting that this is the last of an almost infinite number of loops leading to Peter's now unnecessary presence and therefore no First People.The loops end here. Or do they?

This video explains the concept really well [though it has been posted elsewhere, it still packs a punch!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4GZJpL8W0

And that's where the show's writers trip themselves up. I guess they don't have the luxury of 'time' to figure out various 'plausible' details like we do here at the forum, yet they place themselves under a microscope by incorporating concepts, specifically time travel, into an episodic tv serial.

Ideas such as these do well in a two hour movie, the audience has little time to debate the intricacies of scientific detail, plausibility or implausibility as the case may be, and by the time we do figure out the absurdity of it all we don't care anyway - 'cause we've had a fun ride! It began, it unfolded, it ended all in the space of a hundred and twenty minutes or so. 'The Time Machine' [1960],'The Final Countdown' [1980]; 'Back To The Future' [1985]; 'Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure' [1989] etc etc. They were cool movies! Back To The Future #1 is one of my all-time favorites, but stretch it out and it starts to look a little thin.

So, yeah, we have no need to send the BBM back anymore cause 2011 Peter(n) is the last Peter. And he no longer exists anyway... so no future 2026 Peter(n).

September: 'He served his purpose...' Been nice knowin' ya Pete!

But, of course, the writers have allowed themselves a diversity of options carte blanche which further foreshadows fantasy script treatment and, more to the point, implausibility. Spoilers have already alluded to Joshua Jackson having a contract in Season 4. Whether he returns as flashbacks, apparition, a mind invader in someone else's body, a pseudo-observer, a newborn baby - well we just have to wait and see what Pinkner and Wyman dish up.

So, if one is completely prepared and willing to buy into the Implausibility of Fringe, then the future plotlines and mythology hold much hope. And now that I hold this thought myself I'm pretty much open to anything!

.
MM


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[littlemcbeast]

Spoilers have already alluded to Jackson having a contract in Season 4. Whether he returns as flashbacks, apparition, a mind invader in someone else's body, a pseudo-observer, a newborn baby - well we just have to wait and see what Pinkner and Wyman dish up.

Oh, I'd love to see Joshua Jackson playing a newborn baby.

The categorization of the show as science fantasy is a great nuance; Fringe is sometimes a very delicate balance between rationalization and too much rationalization.

Also I do think the writers have taken more time planning out this plot development than people think. According to this article, not only are they always a season ahead, but they've established the rules of their time-travel world somewhat thoroughly (and more importantly - plan on sticking to it!).

JP: We've said it before that we always plot the seasons out a year in advance. We're not going around willy-nilly. It's something that we always lay out and we definitely know where we're going and feel like this is a perfect set-up for Season Four. A lot of the things and a lot of decisions that I think may confuse some people now -- other people it didn't, but some people it did confuse and some for some people they were good questions and for some people they were bad questions -- we feel confident that the answers will be revealed in the following season.

JP: One of the notable things about time-travel paradoxes is that there are several ways to attack the time-travel paradox and as long as you remain honest and consistent with the rules that you choose to follow, the rules that you choose to establish, you're good. So we'll be very clear with the rules that we are establishing and hopefully we will remain true to those.

[Moviemath]

Hi LMcB

Oh, I'd love to see Joshua Jackson playing a newborn baby.

Heh.

The categorization of the show as science fantasy is a great nuance; Fringe is sometimes a very delicate balance between rationalization and too much rationalization.

Double heh!

Also I do think the writers have taken more time planning out this plot development than people think. According to this article, not only are they always a season ahead, but they've established the rules of their time-travel world somewhat thoroughly (and more importantly - plan on sticking to it!).

Yeah, I read that article yesterday. In the past I, personally, used to hang on every word and promise these guys would put out through various interviews and articles. Not so much anymore. A lot of what they've said and done in earlier seasons has led to nothing, and they cover themselves by asking us for an inordinate amount of patience given the myriad of pastimes and activities most people are involved in these days.... me among them.

Did you watch the video in my post? It's fun, and pretty much explains how time travel can be a real mind bender, and if you're not prepared to 'buy in'... a total waste of time.

I, for one, am at last at peace...!


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[littlemcbeast]

In the past I, personally, used to hang on every word and promise these guys would put out through various interviews and articles. Not so much anymore. A lot of what they've said and done in earlier seasons has led to nothing, and they cover themselves by asking us for an inordinate amount of patience given the myriad of pastimes and activities most people are involved in these days.... me among them.

I've only recently started following interviews, so I guess I'm still in the pollyanna phase of it all. I'm always very forgiving when I love something though; I can usually find some way of reconciling any faults in logic to make myself happy - so I think I'll be okay with Fringe.

I saw about half the video before my ADHD took me elsewhere, but I do plan on watching the rest of it at some point. (And finish some of the longer theoretical posts on here...) With coffee, I will make it through!

[Moviemath]

^ Happy travels !

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[AlainaO]

The We in "The Day We Died" has always represented to me just what Walter(n-1) said in the episode, the entire world died on the day Peter went into the machine. But since the world did not end and Peter became a non-entity, I came to think it meant that the We was the romantic pairing of Peter and Olivia.

I don't agree with this and really hope it is not the case. I would feel very cheated if I had invested three years into their great dynamic/relationship for it to suddenly all be erased. I think this is a big problem for a lot of the fans, which is why this is such a polarizing episode. In an interview with EW the showrunners say:
Is this the end of the Peter/Olivia romance? Or is that still in play?
PINKNER: Well, at the moment, Peter’s not even in play, so that curtails a relationship. And at the moment there are two Olivias, so it would be interesting to have a love triangle with just two Olivias. It seems a large portion of our fanbase was initially resistant to the idea of a relationship but got on board. We’re still very much interested in exploring it. Hopefully this is a long and unfolding story. We don’t want to shut down any avenues, be it Bell or Lincoln and Charlie or Peter/Olivia.
WYMAN: We think people are invested in the relationship, and we are, too.
PINKNER: We have said from the beginning that Fringe is a family drama masquerading as a science fiction/investigation show. But it’s called Fringe because it’s about three characters that live on the fringe of life and society and have a hard time dealing with their own emotions, but who find each other and find connection with each other. We will remain true to that.

This gives me hope.

[Lij]

I was not speaking of an ultimate end to Peter and Olivia's romantic relationship, but certainly it is an end to what they came to have in this last season. I fully expect that there will be a way for them to rekindle it.

[Chi]

I'm only just seeing this thread, but it's got some of the best theories I've seen so far and that's saying a lot The whole thing with brain porting and essentially "leaving a print" of Peter(n-1) on the machine seems quite plausible and explains how they "brought his consciousness forward" by taking it back first! It also explains why Peter was confused after his first attempt at entering the BBM - if other imprints of future Peter from different time loops (n-2, n-3 etc) where also left on the machine, there must have been a version of Peter that grew up in the RedVerse so he'd been temporarily imprinted by that.

Very clever reasoning well done!


The whole disappearing out of existence thing is still difficult to wrap my head around - the issues with time travel paradoxes just makes it seems really impossible....

[Chi]

[removing double post]

[Lij]

I'm only just seeing this thread, but it's got some of the best theories I've seen so far and that's saying a lot The whole thing with brain porting and essentially "leaving a print" of Peter(n-1) on the machine seems quite plausible and explains how they "brought his consciousness forward" by taking it back first! It also explains why Peter was confused after his first attempt at entering the BBM - if other imprints of future Peter from different time loops (n-2, n-3 etc) where also left on the machine, there must have been a version of Peter that grew up in the RedVerse so he'd been temporarily imprinted by that.

Very clever reasoning well done!


The whole disappearing out of existence thing is still difficult to wrap my head around - the issues with time travel paradoxes just makes it seems really impossible....

Thank you, Chi. Frankly, sometimes just thinking about the ramifications that TDWD introduced into FRINGE gives me headaches. Yeah, I have the same problem wrapping my head around Peter's existence as well. And dammit!! I hope the writer's are having an even worse time trying to reconcile it!! - at the writers.

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