How Disappointed Are You In S4?

[Eamonn]

I think it's been great.. guess the show isn't for everyone.

Oh and they didn't 'throw out the old timeline because of how bad it was', or whatever you said. That timeline will more than likely come back via the machine, observers, or something.

[paladin24]

To OP - some of us respect and appreciate shows that actually have the guts to take risks,even if sometimes they fail, rather than playing it safe and pandering to what others would prefer.

Perhaps you like to tune in knowing exactly what's going to happen every week or every new season. Some of us enjoy the unexpected and seeing how the writers get themselves out of what we perceive to be an impossible position.

I really don't give a damn what the majority of the TV watching public thinks. My opinions and tastes are my own,and I speak only for myself. However, it appears that most people watch absolute dreck and wouldn't know a good show if it bit them directly in the ass.

If you want stale and formulaic and predictable and safe, there is a huge variety of other shows out there that would suit your tastes just fine, methinks.

[CazzX]

I'm a bit disappointed, yes.

1.) Peter
Peter's "disappearance and return" storyline doesn't captivate me.
What are the Observers doing?
Remember: September was assigned to erase Peter for good. Now Peter is back and the Observers are obviously erased by still unknown super-observers or just decided they don't care.

2.) Alternate Universe
What about the other universe? They work together on a small, relatively unimportant case...but if the person who(se supposed death) is responsible for every single problem between them shows up as an aduld, they don't even TALK with each other? Walternate was probably kidnapped by aliens. I can't explain his complete absence otherwise.

3.) Characters
Known and loved characters and relationships are gone. Broyles, Astrid and especially Nina are merely extras.

4.) Missing Creativity
So many episodes are basically rehashed.
Shapeshifters: Seasons 2 and 3
Alone In the World: Night Of Desirable Object
Subject 9: Every cortexiphan episode before.
And Those We've Left Behind: White Tulip
etc.

5.) No Time In Every Timeline
Realistically, it's their and our last season. So why are they wasting time with "alternate timelines" and and before seen cases of the week?
I fear at the end of the season we're cancelled and:
End of Season 3: No Peter. There is a bridge. "We're here now. So maybe it's time we start to fix it."
End of Season 4 (Series End): Peter's there. A bridge. "We're still here. So maybe it's time we FINALLY start to fix it."
No you don't.

Hope I will be wrong.

[Omniscient_Jay]

Welcome to the forums, jdwpi28.

From your opening post, your discontent seems to be in part rooted in how the old characters have been replaced with "new" ones. Many have voiced similar thoughts here and elsewhere, because they don't "care" about these new characters, and yearn for the ones "they know and love".

I can't really say I understand this phenomena, because I've never "cared" for the characters, at least in the sense of finding them relatable/sympathizing with them. My own enjoyment derives form the thought-provoking concepts and ideas raised by the show, and the complexity of the show's various world/mythos. Obviously, the characters and their relationships are a vital part of any story, but for me, they are merely the instruments by which the show's greater design is revealed*.

But the disconnect between past seasons and this fourth one seems to be polarizing in various ways; the reason this is, I suspect, is because we don't know why the show going down this particular route. Why are they doing this? Why throw away the past three seasons in favour of a pseudo-reboot?

Obviously, the writers have some goal in mind, a goal that has yet to be revealed to us. Which is why the only rational course of action that remains is to simply wait and see whether by the end of this arc it was worth the trouble it caused. Once this chapter in the Fringe story comes to a close, we will be better able to judge the quality/relevance/success of the current story arc.

*This probably sounds like a strange way to experience things, but that's just how it's always been for me.

First of all, we are six episodes into S4. Six! Can anybody tell me something that has added to the plot of S3? The answer is no, you cannot. I liked Walter because of his personality and interaction with Peter. Gone. Same for Olivia. The Peter story line of him being "missing" went on far too long, everybody knew Josh Jackson was still with the show, why are you getting rid of a star character for several shows. Makes no sense.

My take on this is as follows:

It doesn't quite add to the plot of S3 because that plot was for the most part resolved by the finale. By the end of the S3 finale, the story's dual-world premise had been pretty much exhausted. The two worlds came into contact, have clashed, and the only thing left was reconciliation (this reconciliation coming in the form of the Bridge). Ordinarily, the next step would be to explore how they would reconcile their differences and save the worlds once and for all, but to have the inter-world drama extend for an additional ~20 episode season seems rather ill-advised, wouldn't you say?

Either they immediately resolve their issues and work together, thereby ending all conflict and tension, or they unnaturally prolong the drama, throwing in arbitrary obstacles along the way to fuel the conflict and tension way past their prime; neither of these outcomes seems very appealing, at least to me.

The only option left is to change things up in different ways, hence the timeline shifting. Because the only real mythological elements left to explore are the Observers, secondary, minor mysteries raised in past seasons (e.g. the Green-Red Dot Pattern, Robert Bishop's past, the nature of certain characters such as the bald kind from 1.15 and David Mosley, etc.), and now, the mystery surrounding the timeline shifting and what happened to Peter (the mystery of the new Shapeshifters is a consequence of the shifting of history, so that doesn't really count as a proper mystery, IMO).

Everything else (the nature of the Other Side, the First People and the Machine, the Pattern, etc.) has pretty much been resolved by this point. I am inclined to disagree with your assertion that the reason down this route was to "overwrite" a previously convoluted plot, but I don't know what exactly you are referring to when you speak of " the old storyline not making much sense". So if I may ask, what element(s) of the plot/mythology of the past seasons did you find confusing/convoluted?

Long story short, you can only play with the "two worlds at war" premise for so long before it becomes stagnant; given this, it is understandable that such a bold shift in the S3 endgame would be instated.

As for the characters (which is what you seem to be concerned about), they and their relationships were also reaching dead ends. By the end of S3, Walter had matured from mentally unstable to reasonably functional and had pretty much come to terms with his demons, Peter had come to his own as a man who takes charge of his destiny, Olivia learned to emerge from the unpenetrable shell she had developed to keep people at bay as well as master her potential, Walter and Peter's father-son bond had been all but repaired, Peter and Olivia had come to the climax of their romance, the whole Fringe team had pretty much grown in to a solid family unit...

What further room for character development is left in this case?

The characters, like the plot, had reached the point where the only thing left to do is resolve the endgame and roll the final credits. They could have done that, and I imagine that many would have been satisfied, but they've decided to continue to explore the show from different angles. New and even current long-time viewers and fans are understandably turned off by the notion, something reflected in the ratings, but the decreasing viewership in Fringe is hardly a new phenomenon, having dropped slowly but surely ever since the end of S1.

As an international viewer, I have no stakes in the ratings, so I can only watch for as long as it's on the air. And I intend to watch it until the end, because it still continues to be fascinating.

...Good lord, what a long and rambling post.

In any case, I hope you stick around, even if Fringe is doomed to fail.

I flat don't like the way Peter is handling his situation. I don't understand why he isn't going over every single detail that is now different. He's just taking it in stride like a moron. He should be going over case files, getting up to speed on the new history, seeing what matches up and what doesn't. I can understand his discretion, but his complete lack of interest in trying to understand how the two sides are now formed is beyond me and I think dumbs down the mythos. Too much belief to suspend. It's becoming more and more SyFy level quality. Imho.

In all fairness, though, Peter has only been back for three days since his return. In these three days, he's either been held in captivity by the FBI/Fringe Division, or was busy assisting in the Neo-Shifter and Time Bubble cases, which unfolded one after the other. Peter hasn't had much of a chance to dig into the subtleties of this new pair of histories and access/find more information on what has changed; though now that he has proven himself as an asset to the Fringe team, and that he has been granted more freedom (the old Bishop household), he's in a better position to start getting to the root of the problem.

But even in these three days, he's learned a lot, namely that the key difference was that the Observer didn't save him at Reiden, that the timeline has apparently shifted in his absence, and that he is an anomalous presence in this place.

In short, considering that it's only been three days for him, I think it's too early to chastise Peter on his perceived lack of proactivity, especially with everything that's been going on.

[Ironheart]

I'm a bit disappointed, yes.

1.) Peter
Peter's "disappearance and return" storyline doesn't captivate me.
What are the Observers doing?
Remember: September was assigned to erase Peter for good. Now Peter is back and the Observers are obviously erased by still unknown super-observers or just decided they don't care.

To me, the disappearance of Peter from the timeline was very captivating. It was interesting to see what he had effected in his time in the world. Remember, Peter^Blue would have been dead and never had an effect at all on the Blueverse. This is like seeing what might have been had Walter not crossed over to Redverse and created the events of seasons 1 through 3.

As for the Observers, give them a break! It's only been 72 hours since Peter showed up and for most of that, he's been locked up in the Boston Federal Building. They haven't had time to notice his appearance, let alone react to it.

2.) Alternate Universe
What about the other universe? They work together on a small, relatively unimportant case...but if the person who(se supposed death) is responsible for every single problem between them shows up as an aduld, they don't even TALK with each other? Walternate was probably kidnapped by aliens. I can't explain his complete absence otherwise.

Again, I point to the fact that it's only been 72 hours since Peter showed up. They JUST got done investigating him as a Fringe case in this episode, and I'm sure they've not really had time to discuss what's happened with the Redverse. As for Walternate, his counterpart kidnapped his child, and then the child drowned! I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want anything to do with the other universe if that happened.

3.) Characters
Known and loved characters and relationships are gone. Broyles, Astrid and especially Nina are merely extras.

This I agree with, but if/when the relationships are restored, aren't you going to have a better appreciation for them and an understanding of why they exist? I think it's beautiful the way Peter and Walter needed one another to ground each other in our world. With that gone, you really get to see just how much sanity Walter had gained, and how much worse things would have been.

4.) Missing Creativity
So many episodes are basically rehashed.
Shapeshifters: Seasons 2 and 3
Alone In the World: Night Of Desirable Object
Subject 9: Every cortexiphan episode before.
And Those We've Left Behind: White Tulip
etc.

I vehemently disagree with you on this point. Yes, the shows are rehashes of what had happened before, but they were designed that way for a purpose. They are drawing parallels to help us understand the world better. For fans of the show, we get to see how situations are handled different from this season as they were in the first when we had Peter. For people just coming into the show, hopefully they get a season they can easily follow. I honestly think it'd be interesting to know nothing of the first three seasons and come in right now when everything has changed. You wouldn't know Peter either, just like everybody else in Yellowverse.

I think it's brilliant of the writers to draw so many parallels, to try and emerse us in a new and unfamiliar universe by giving us some familiar cases and themes. If all they did was new to us, then the whole world would seem too alien.

5.) No Time In Every Timeline
Realistically, it's their and our last season. So why are they wasting time with "alternate timelines" and and before seen cases of the week?
I fear at the end of the season we're cancelled and:
End of Season 3: No Peter. There is a bridge. "We're here now. So maybe it's time we start to fix it."
End of Season 4 (Series End): Peter's there. A bridge. "We're still here. So maybe it's time we FINALLY start to fix it."
No you don't.

Hope I will be wrong.

I think we're on the verge of getting things back on track. Remember, we're only episode 6 of 22, so there is plenty of time for them to fix whatever went wrong with the machine and get us back on track with healing both universes. But then, this story was never going to end with a fairy tale "and they all lived happily ever after." That would be cheap, because they all have lives ahead of them to live and they might always have fringe science cases to solve.

[Omniscient_Jay]

As for the Observers, give them a break! It's only been 72 hours since Peter showed up and for most of that, he's been locked up in the Boston Federal Building. They haven't had time to notice his appearance, let alone react to it.

I know I'm not a part of this particular conversation, but I just wanted to thank you for reminding me of this.

The lack of Observer follow-up has been my only major S4 gripe up to this point, but now that it has been revealed that only three days have passed, I can finally be at peace.

[Ironheart]

I know I'm not a part of this particular conversation, but I just wanted to thank you for reminding me of this.

The lack of Observer follow-up has been my only major S4 gripe up to this point, but now that it has been revealed that only three days have passed, I can finally be at peace.

No problem, it was one of my gripes too, at first, but things seem to take a lot longer for us because we've waited 2 weeks for events that have only taken 3 days. To us, the events are taking a long, long time (especially since we're anticipating the next show every week).

[tricked]

I know I'm not a part of this particular conversation, but I just wanted to thank you for reminding me of this.

The lack of Observer follow-up has been my only major S4 gripe up to this point, but now that it has been revealed that only three days have passed, I can finally be at peace.

Yes the good point is the 3 day thing .... if it had been longer, it would seem more ridiculous to me. However, I still think Peter is playing it a little too close to the chest. He could be a bit more open. This was one of his problems before ... the subterfuge, hidden agendas he kept from those he could have trusted, yada yada. I understand his reservation, but at the same time, he should be a bit more proactive. 3 days or no ...

[Omniscient_Jay]

Yes the good point is the 3 day thing .... if it had been longer, it would seem more ridiculous to me. However, I still think Peter is playing it a little too close to the chest. He could be a bit more open. This was one of his problems before ... the subterfuge, hidden agendas he kept from those he could have trusted, yada yada. I understand his reservation, but at the same time, he should be a bit more proactive. 3 days or no ...

I would imagine that Peter questions whether being more open is even worth it if no one is going to listen. He's tried to reconnect with these people, but has been met with failure every time. Now, Walter won't talk to him at all, Olivia seems to have her reservations about him (though she seems to be opening up), Broyles probably would (understandably) be opposed to giving Peter classified information, etc.

However, Peter now seems to be of the opinion that he doesn't belong here at all, and that he should try to get back to the history he once knew, which is as proactive as a guy can be, so I think we'll be seeing plenty of Peter taking charge in coming episodes.

[RETLAW]

I would imagine that Peter questions whether being more open is even worth it if no one is going to listen. He's tried to reconnect with these people, but has been met with failure every time. Now, Walter won't talk to him at all, Olivia seems to have her reservations about him (though she seems to be opening up), Broyles probably would (understandably) be opposed to giving Peter classified information, etc.

However, Peter now seems to be of the opinion that he doesn't belong here at all, and that he should try to get back to the history he once knew, which is as proactive as a guy can be, so I think we'll be seeing plenty of Peter taking charge in coming episodes.

Agreed. We heard that "deja vu ...telling you that you're not on your path..." (and I'm butchering the paraphrasing) line before from Peter in S2, and that was before he finds out he was from the AU. Upon finding out, we saw how he initially embraced his being from the AU, and even trying to fit in there (while this may have been greatly fueled by his perception of Walter betraying him). This current tone seems in line with Peter in that sense. It's an oddly calm and mature assessment by Peter, but one that fits his character's historic make-up.