People, I do not feel sorry for Eugene

[willg]

The story seemed to give us an incite into this Olivia's emotional state and state of mind which might help later on. Just a thought.

[Polka Dot Gene]

It is surely impossible not to feel some sympathy for Eugene. He was what Massive Dynamic, uncaring scientists treating him like an animal and the world had made him. I didn't feel he was stalking Julie (the woman in the elevator) so much as he had no clue how to interact with her at a normal level. He clearly had no evil intent against her. The moment her reaction to his gift was fear he immediately left the apartment.

I don't feel entire sympathy for him though because he was, let's face it, killing perfectly innocent strangers in order to fix himself. So he loses a whole lot of Brownie points there.

[psychopathicROC]

Well, it DOES suck, but he was on borrowed time from the beginning. He would have been dead as a baby. So, I can totally see the justification for everything, even if i don't agree with it per se.

[tricked]

I don't feel entire sympathy for him though because he was, let's face it, killing perfectly innocent strangers in order to fix himself. So he loses a whole lot of Brownie points there.

Well animals do this all the time in nature .... they kill "innocent strangers" to survive. In human societies we have sometimes looked for alternate methods rather than direct killing of each other lol

Although Eugene did seem to think that even what he was doing was morally wrong .... and he seemed to need to rationalize it to himself. That shows he was capable of empathy and a sense of morality, but chose to go against it in a somewhat intellectually dishonest way. Consequences.

[Olive_Dunham]

I did feel bad for him.
I know that in a way, the experiment was what kept him alive in the first place; if it wasn't for that he would have died. If you see it from that perspective he should have been kind of thankful; you know, at least he's alive. But honestly being alive that way... that's not really being alive. As he pointed out, it's when people see you and notice you that you exist.

My point is, would you rather live that way, or have died as a child? If you asked me I'd go with the second. How thankful could you be when you'd probably rather be dead than alive this way, having to kill people to be seen?
But the thing is, it wasn't up to him; like it or not he was alive. All he could do was fight, or try to find a cure, see if he could fix his problem. He had been like a ghost all his life, trying to be a part of the world and at the same time unable to; he was even 'in love' with this girl Julia. He had his reason to fight. He wasn't killing because he was a selfish basterd (thank you Tarantino for providing an alternative to the original word that's censored) who wanted to be normal or a psycho who enjoyed killing; he just wanted her to see him.

Of course the killing part is and will always be wrong, but for someone who never had anything, and whose presence in this world was not his fault, it was probably the price to pay. He'd think I suffered all my life, I deserve something at least, and at any cost, though I'm sure he did not enjoy killing people but it was the only way he had to experience something similar to what other people experience throughout their lives...

As for the bed scene, as a girl I suppose I'd be freaked out if one day I got home to find someone did that. However, I don't think it can be compared to a stalker or something like that, you know someone with a psychological problem of some kind. Like I said, from the eyes of Julia, well it is creepy, but if he had been truly obsessed with her in an unhealthy way, her reaction to his surprise would have p!ssed him off. Usually these people tend to react violently when the object of their obsession finds them creepy or sick. A psycho/stalker/whatever you wanna call them would not appreciate a reaction like Julia's...
He didn't, so I suppose in a way he wanted her, or loved her, and even though this was sort of a one-way relationship, he did mean well. He didn't mean to hurt her or assault her.

[tricked]

I did feel bad for him.
I know that in a way, the experiment was what kept him alive in the first place; if it wasn't for that he would have died. If you see it from that perspective he should have been kind of thankful; you know, at least he's alive. But honestly being alive that way... that's not really being alive. As he pointed out, it's when people see you and notice you that you exist.

My point is, would you rather live that way, or have died as a child? If you asked me I'd go with the second. How thankful could you be when you'd probably rather be dead than alive this way, having to kill people to be seen?
But the thing is, it wasn't up to him; like it or not he was alive. All he could do was fight, or try to find a cure, see if he could fix his problem. He had been like a ghost all his life, trying to be a part of the world and at the same time unable to; he was even 'in love' with this girl Julia. He had his reason to fight. He wasn't killing because he was a selfish basterd (thank you Tarantino for providing an alternative since the original word is censored) who wanted to be normal or a psycho who enjoyed killing; he just wanted her to see him.

I know this is loosely related, but your comments remind me somewhat of what Peter says in the first digital comic, but from a different light (and sorry for the spoiler tags): when he talks about the fact that he doesn't fear death ... it's life he fears. Take that even farther in his case ..... not only did Peter have to deal with his life being taken and destroyed on so many levels, but he had to deal with it in multiple universes ... and to add insult to injury, when he tried to erase himself from time, he couldn't even do that ! lol. Which begs the question .... what if you neither wanted to be alive, nor dead, but you couldn't escape either no matter what you did or which choice you made ? What then ?

[RandyO]

As for the bed scene, as a girl I suppose I'd be freaked out if one day I got home to find someone did that. However, I don't think it can be compared to a stalker or something like that, you know someone with a psychological problem of some kind. Like I said, from the eyes of Julia, well it is creepy, but if he had been truly obsessed with her in an unhealthy way, her reaction to his surprise would have p!ssed him off. Usually these people tend to react violently when the object of their obsession finds them creepy or sick. A psycho/stalker/whatever you wanna call them would not appreciate a reaction like Julia's...
He didn't, so I suppose in a way he wanted her, or loved her, and even though this was sort of a one-way relationship, he did mean well. He didn't mean to hurt her or assault her.

I'm not exactly sure if most stalkers come in the familiar fatal attraction "criminal minds" sort of profile.

I suspect that some need to spend time with their love objects until they either go postal on them or do something less malevolent. I suspect that in Eugene's case, being able to identify himself as a perma-victim will eventually justify any action his takes, kinda like the person in 'Repo Man' who said that it wasn't his fault for burglarizing homes and that society had made him do it.

[Olive_Dunham]

I know this is loosely related, but your comments remind me somewhat of what Peter says in the first digital comic, but from a different light (and sorry for the spoiler tags): when he talks about the fact that he doesn't fear death ... it's life he fears. Take that even farther in his case ..... not only did Peter have to deal with his life being taken and destroyed on so many levels, but he had to deal with it in multiple universes ... and to add insult to injury, when he tried to erase himself from time, he couldn't even do that ! lol. Which begs the question .... what if you neither wanted to be alive, nor dead, but you couldn't escape either no matter what you did or which choice you made ? What then ?

when he tried to erase himself from time, he couldn't even do that Lol That's tragic!

Now in all seriousness, that's interesting... I haven't read the digital comics (shame on me) but you know the whole 'you can't escape your destiny' thing is a recurring theme on the show.
Olivia couldn't escape her 'fate' (I say fate but honestly it looks more like someone's behind it, and not 'God' precisely), remember the John Scott situation... Before he died he told her to ask herself why that was happening to her, as if he knew it was happening for a reason bigger than all of them. Remember how she wanted to go back to before but couldn't?
Then Peter, the machine and the observers; he couldn't escape who he was either...

I suppose they were trying to create some parallels between this guy Eugene and Peter. For one they were both in this 'world' when technically they shouldn't. Eugene should have died as a baby;, Peter should be...... um ..........( I don't really know what he should be doing or what he should be or where!). It wasn't their fault, it was not their decision (well in theory none of us is here because we planned it, our parents did, *duh* but what I mean is: the reason they're this way, the reason they feel inadequate and wrong in a place they shouldn't be, is because someone else made that decision for them.
Then there's the episode title. They're both 'wallflowers,' outsiders, observers in a way. They witness everything but don't take part in anything, they don't get involved.

I'm not exactly sure if most stalkers come in the familiar fatal attraction "criminal minds" sort of profile.

I suspect that some need to spend time with their love objects until they either go postal on them or do something less malevolent. I suspect that in Eugene's case, being able to identify himself as a perma-victim will eventually justify any action his takes, kinda like the person in 'Repo Man' who said that it wasn't his fault for burglarizing homes and that society had made him do it.

Yeah, I suppose... he certainly thought it justified the murders.
But I still don't think he would have hurt her anyway. I don't even know if you could say he was obsessed with her per se. It felt more innocent than that, you know like a crush or something like that. Reminded me of high school a little, you know when you had a crush on someone and you'd do anything to be noticed...
He'd just wait to see her everyday on the elevator, hoping one day she'd see him and talk to him, or at least say hi or talk about the weather outside. And it seemed he'd been doing that for a while, so he seemed pretty patient in general, considering she only talked to him that one time, never before. But you can never know, it's not like he was completely sane; he killed people and felt no remorse whatsoever so that's kind of a bad sign...

[tricked]

when he tried to erase himself from time, he couldn't even do that Lol That's tragic!

Now in all seriousness, that's interesting... I haven't read the digital comics (shame on me) but you know the whole 'you can't escape your destiny' thing is a recurring theme on the show.
Olivia couldn't escape her 'fate' (I say fate but honestly it looks more like someone's behind it, and not 'God' precisely), remember the John Scott situation... Before he died he told her to ask herself why that was happening to her, as if he knew it was happening for a reason bigger than all of them. Remember how she wanted to go back to before but couldn't?
Then Peter, the machine and the observers; he couldn't escape who he was either...

I suppose they were trying to create some parallels between this guy Eugene and Peter. For one they were both in this 'world' when technically they shouldn't. Eugene should have died as a baby;, Peter should be...... um ..........( I don't really know what he should be doing or what he should be or where!). It wasn't their fault, it was not their decision (well in theory none of us is here because we planned it, our parents did, *duh* but what I mean is: the reason they're this way, the reason they feel inadequate and wrong in a place they shouldn't be, is because someone else made that decision for them.
Then there's the episode title. They're both 'wallflowers,' outsiders, observers in a way. They witness everything but don't take part in anything, they don't get involved.

You nailed it here at the end .... they are both wallflowers. Observers. In a way.

Except before .... I do think it was all about fate. They were all on a crash course for a loop destiny that never ended, always repeated. Now, "post machine", Amberverse, whatever you want to call it .... I think fate/destiny aren't clear to our key players. Peter has bleed through, timelines that were supposed to be erased don't seem to have "taken" the way the Observers expected, yada yada.

I don't think they are "making it up" as they go along now, as there seem to be some new *pattern* evolving and growing. However, they don't seem to be the same slaves to the "pattern of fate" that was taking place before either.

This is a new fate ... one with unknowns even to the puppetmasters I might guess. So Peter and Eugene might be wallflowers, and observers to a degree ... but they both eventually "bleed through" and fully interact with their environment :~).

[Kc]

Is there any reason, why when Eugene died in the elevator, as he lay there it skipped floor 13 or just reading too much into nothing lol?