Flattening Space-Time

**Omniscient_Jay** · 02-04-2012, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Lij

Well, my Separate Realities idea would have it that Peter should not rationally exist - and thus disappeared - simply because that irrational reality containing him ceased to exist. He and that reality being intimately involved as that imbalance which was created when Walternate turned on his Vacuum in the S4 timeline. As long as Peter choose a path that prolonged his own existence, then he perpetuated that irrationality and imbalance. Only when he made the correct choice was then balance and rationality re-established.

Well, I already know how IT/RT works, so I guess this would make sense in the context of that framework.

Since my job is to find alternatives to IT/RT (lol), I'm simply going to call the mechanism through which September's interference at Reiden was undone the Window of Instability for now; for from a causal perspective, by choosing an outcome other than to destroy, Peter undoes the foundation of the closed temporal loop upon which the Vacuum's existence (and by extension, the Bridge) was undone, therefore meaning that this Bridged reality is unstable in a sense.

I'll work out how that makes sense later.

**jophan** · 02-05-2012, 05:16 AM

I don't see that September "made it so" - as September simply did nothing in this reality. All he did was Observe.

But did he still interrupt Walternate in his experiment on the cure? If so, then the combination of interfering with Walternate and choosing not to interfere at Reiden Lake still is a net interference with the intention of destroying RedPeter. If not, then Walter would have no motive to cross, as Walternate could have made the appropriate adjustment to the serum.

One of my half-baked theories is that Peter survived in his own world in the "base" reality, creating the machine with Walternate as the ultimate weapon in a hot war with the Blueverse (undertaken for reasons probably related to Walter & Bell). But destruction of the Blueverse caused the drawn-out destruction of the Redverse. The machine was rebuilt to send through the temporal wormhole, with one part containing an extract of Peter's memories to inform his counterpart in the next loop. But that part was either damaged or sabotaged (by rogue Observers? the Sam Weisses? Peter's "confusion" in TLSW is evidence that the memory overlay could have existed.) so that the cycle continued through an indefinite number of loops. At last, September deliberately interrupted Walternate in order to change Peter's upbringing and personality, creating a potential way out of the loop. He cast it as a mistake to his cohort to retain his position. The way out of the loop was Walter[2026]'s choice of an alternative method of informing Peter[2011] of the consequences. The branch was created.

I'm still unsure about how the branch gave September the opportunity to change his action at Reiden Lake in 1985, but it probably has something to do with Walter's explanation of Emily's abilities: some traumatic events echo backward through time.

**disorder** · 02-05-2012, 07:41 AM

I thought the observers had the natural ability, but it looks like just use technology.

Now we need to know more about the technology, including the beacon (possibly a "time marker"?)

I think some of the observers are going rogue, perhaps in frustration with whatever plan the 'lead' observer is doing.

I think september saved pete twice and then got shot because of it(maybe peter is still the only thing that can save whatever catastrophe happens to materialise)

**Lij** · 02-05-2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Omniscient_Jay

Since my job is to find alternatives to IT/RT (lol), I'm simply going to call the mechanism through which September's interference at Reiden was undone the Window of Instability for now; for from a causal perspective, by choosing an outcome other than to destroy, Peter undoes the foundation of the closed temporal loop upon which the Vacuum's existence (and by extension, the Bridge) was undone, therefore meaning that this Bridged reality is unstable in a sense.

I'll work out how that makes sense later.

It's EVERYBODY's job to find an alternative to IRvsRT!

It's even my job since as much as I like the idea (and it seems to fit the existing situation) I'm fairly dang sure it's wrong.

So are you saying the true temporal source of the Vacuum must necessarily lie within the paradox and that is why the S4 reality is unstable?

**Lij** · 02-05-2012, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by jophan

But did he still interrupt Walternate in his experiment on the cure? If so, then the combination of interfering with Walternate and choosing not to interfere at Reiden Lake still is a net interference with the intention of destroying RedPeter. If not, then Walter would have no motive to cross, as Walternate could have made the appropriate adjustment to the serum.

I tend to think that September did not interfere with Walternate finding a cure; that Walternate simply did not find the cure. But thinking like that may be why I am completely wrong. Still, why should distracting Walternate during the paradox of S1-3 have been "September's mistake," because Peter was absolutely necessary and must live. And yet distracting Walternate in the S4 timeline have been no big deal because Peter cannot exist? Inconsistencies like that freak me out. My point is that Peter never existed in any reality except that of the paradox and then only there because he was absolutely necessary because of the Vacuum (of which he is an intimate part).

One of my half-baked theories is that Peter survived in his own world in the "base" reality, creating the machine with Walternate as the ultimate weapon in a hot war with the Blueverse (undertaken for reasons probably related to Walter & Bell). But destruction of the Blueverse caused the drawn-out destruction of the Redverse. The machine was rebuilt to send through the temporal wormhole, with one part containing an extract of Peter's memories to inform his counterpart in the next loop. But that part was either damaged or sabotaged (by rogue Observers? the Sam Weisses? Peter's "confusion" in TLSW is evidence that the memory overlay could have existed.) so that the cycle continued through an indefinite number of loops. At last, September deliberately interrupted Walternate in order to change Peter's upbringing and personality, creating a potential way out of the loop. He cast it as a mistake to his cohort to retain his position. The way out of the loop was Walter[2026]'s choice of an alternative method of informing Peter[2011] of the consequences. The branch was created.

I too had the idea that Peter's memories from 2026 were built into the machine to show Peter what the future would be like when he entered the machine in 2026. But it appears now that the machine performs a similar function to the Observer device which 'flattens' time so that may be perceived all at once. It is difficult to understand that if September wasn't meant to distract Walternate and Walter wasn't meant to raise Peter (thus "September's mistake" and the solution) then why is it at the end in 2026 should it always be Walter sending the machine back from the Bluverse? Again, inconsistencies abound. And just what was the base reality from which the paradox 'spiralled' out of? That's why I got rid of those inconsistencies in my idea and had the S4 reality spawn the S1-3 reality via the Vacuum. It logically works; but goes against the Fringe concepts of timelines.

**Omniscient_Jay** · 02-05-2012, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Lij

It's EVERYBODY's job to find an alternative to IRvsRT!

It's even my job since as much as I like the idea (and it seems to fit the existing situation) I'm fairly dang sure it's wrong.

So are you saying the true temporal source of the Vacuum must necessarily lie within the paradox and that is why the S4 reality is unstable?

What I'm trying to do is construct a face-value, causal model of Fringe. The problem, as I see it, is this:

The First People loop - that is, the perpetual cycle brought into being by Peter's decision to Destroy - is a closed temporal loop. Therefore, every single event is directly contingent on the one that preceded it. So when 2011 Peter creates the Bridge, he creates a different future, one distinct from the dire 2026. However, we are left will several problems. The Vacuum originated from that very 2026 future; if that future was averted, then how did it get here in 2011? This, by extension, means that the Bridge could also not have been formed, as it obviously relies on the Vacuum.

So this new Bridged reality (the one that existed for ~60 seconds at the end of 2011) was technically unstable, and is a period of time I have come to term the Window of Instability (WOI), as the very nature of this Bridge reality is paradoxical due to the Vacuum's origins being deleted.

My current working solution for the WOI problem is as follows:

I'm not sure if you've followed my posts about rewrites, but I have posited that the rewrite happened because the present could not be causally explained. I originally thought that due to September's inaction which caused Red Peter to die, the current adult Peter was a paradox as his causal history as a post-1985 child was altered, and he was thus expelled. However, I now think the rewrite actually hinges on the Vacuum instead of Reiden Lake.

If 2026 is averted, then the wormhole through which the Vacuum is sent back never forms, and thus the presence of the Vacuum in 2011 cannot b logically explained. So the past shifts to preserve the integrity of the present in concordance with two principles:

-The past is determinate, but the futures is indeterminate, and the point of confluence between the two is what we perceive as the present;
-Linear time follows an entropic arrow, meaning it has a past-->present-->future progression.

The present in 2011 cannot hold, so the determinate past must rewrite itself to causally justify the present as it is currently unfolding; but because time is linear, the rewrite must happen from the past to the present. Since the present possessed the Bridge, history would have shifted to justify a Bridged present; and when September neglected to save Peter this time around, Peter's death as a child was also incorporated into the rewrite. This might be the source of the delay between the WOI and the S4 rewritten timeline; the ~60 seconds that comprise the WOI was merelyth time it took for the rewriting past to catch up to the present.

In short, the solution to the WOI problem is not Reiden Lake-centric, but Vacuum-centric. As the past was rewriting itself to support the present, the past actions of the Observer's were deleted, which is how September was able to take back his interference where it was once locked into place. Because the rewrite was contingent on explaining the Bridge, it would inevitably have surfaced with or without Peter; however, I suspect the reason why September didn't save Peter this time was because the Observers feared that Peter would upset the equation of balance***.

What do you think of all this? The only problem that remains unaccounted for is the point of divergence of the Red/Blue worlds in the S4 timeline, but since that is an open question in any paradigm, I don't think it matters too much.

***In the comics, we have September telling Peter that he is the "value" that is out of place in the equation of balance between both worlds. "They can have their lives. But they cannot have you. And you cannot have them." I think September was referring to the consequences of trying to break out of the loop; he anticipated that altering the future would cause a rewrite to support the Vaccum's existential integrity. He was also hinting to the fact that he would not be saving Peter this time, as they perceive him as a threat to the balance of reality (they cannot have you/you cannot have them). This would in turn be both consistent with his words in 3.22 with December and in 4.01, where December wants to keep Peter away, which I suspect is due to Peter's potential to undermine the balance.

**altwally** · 02-05-2012, 07:14 PM

First I'll say that this thought was noted on another forum by moderator jbehme. I hope this is ok to bring it over here.

He noted that our Fringe team now has access to the complex equations of the Observers. Will Peter and Walter now be able to see all possible futures? Or is the widget also required?

**Omniscient_Jay** · 02-05-2012, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by altwally

First I'll say that this thought was noted on another forum by moderator jbehme. I hope this is ok to bring it over here.

He noted that our Fringe team now has access to the complex equations of the Observers. Will Peter and Walter now be able to see all possible futures? Or is the widget also required?

IIRC, the equations were used to try and figure out how the device worked/how it could be employed. So no, I don't think the equations alone are enough; a human would need the rod to flatten space-time and see time non-linearly.

As for the Observers, I posit that they can do it naturally, but the rods are a sort of tool that assists them in their craft.