4.12 "Welcome to Westfield" - Disappointed

[bookworm2342]

This thread is only for aspects of 4.12 "Welcome to Westfield" that has left you feeling disappointed. We believe that people have the right to enjoy Fringe whilst not necessarily loving everything about a particular episode.

There is, of course, a line between flaming, bashing and abuse. These things we won't tolerate. But you are, of course, allowed to say if you were disappointed by certain aspects and explain your reasons why in a constructive and mature way.

Feel free to stop by the main discussion thread to share your overall thoughts, or post new threads for specific tangents!

[fragaria x phile]

First of all I loooooooved this episode.

But while Fringe has recaptivated me, it hasn't managed to get me to suspend my disbelief like it used to. Theoretical Physics is NOT my bag. Heck, I struggled with mechanical physics. Also, I'm decidedly unable to think about these things long enough to form a cohesive theory in my brain....it all swirls around. So my posts are always pretty vague.

Which is why I miss the biological sci-fi. Full disclosure: I was a bio major. I love bio. But I really love sci-fi, too. I feel the same way about sci-fi as I do about English. You need to know the rules before you break the rules. I end sentences with prepositions, break up my sentences, and capitalize common nouns for emphasis in casual writing. It's sort of like how you have to take basic English classes in a creative writing program.

Well, I feel like the writers have given up an even trying to do well by the science of the show. Anyway, I felt as though the points about DNA were glossed over. There wasn't enough detail in Walter's explanation of the polyploidy (of course, too much detail can be detrimental to suspending belief, but I'd like an indication that there is an explanation in the Fringeverse, even if Walter or the audience hasn't encountered it yet). Chromosomes are physical matter. So why would that part of the alternates (I'm assuming from other timelines...if we are to make a distinction between timelines and universes...and yes I think that Peter's absence could have a butterfly effect large enough to affect so many lives, even though I don't think it has to be one specific alternate timeline in question) be crossed over? What happened to the alternates'?

I think one of the ways to rectify this situation is that by giving DNA some superpower. We've already entered the spiritual realm on Fringe. There has been heavy flirtation with religious allegories and divinity. DNA seems to be different on this show than the way we understand it in our own (not blueveres, but boring old RL) universe.

Thoughts:
-Walter presented an infinite universe model in Season 1. While I've seen forum members point out that the showrunners have abandoned this model, I interpret Fringe as a product that airs on TV, and so I'm not going to abandon parts of S1 it's discussed that Walter was wrong. Of course this leads to incongruities as the production team has changed (and the ideas individuals), but I think it just gives us new 'impossibilities' to explore, not abandon. Both schools-of-thought can survive, there has to be another way, and I promise you Fringies, we will find a way to reconcile them. As far as I understand it, choices are important to those branching, because Walter says so. But there is also randomness to the universe, not to mention a bit of entropy. Throw in the fact that unless Fringe is The Matrix Re-Redux, our choices and timelines do not exist in a vacuum (well, except Peter's).

-I've touched upon this elsewhere: What is absolutely hardest thing for me to accept about these two universes, in my opinion, is that (with possible exemptions on Ella and the couple in 6B), we have genetic doppelgangers. So not only to the same people happen to procreate across the world(s), but that practically indistinguishable genes are passed down. Looking at our own world, had my parents conceived me at any other moment, I could be as different from myself as I am from my brother, genotypically.

-Genetic material alone cannot be the common thread between universes. There has to be some drivel about the human spirit of course, as Professor Farnsworth would say. There is a great genetic imbalance between the Red and Blue verse. Entire species of livestock are missing. The differences in communicable disease stats reflect an imbalance between the genetic code of viruses and bacteria. And so there must be something to human DNA that sets it apart from other DNA.

-This is how I reconcile the soul magnet subplot with Fringe overall. I imagine that these universes, the Red and Blue, before the bridge, have been snapped together in a weird 3.5 dimensional way using doppelgangers as anchor points. Also, DNA is involved in the machine's code. Supernatural DNA could help explain the quantum entanglement of humans as whole beings instead of pieces of matter (still not sure how this effects microorganisms that are integral to our bodies with different DNA).

Anyway, I didn't find anything particularly wrong with the way DNA was written into this episode. But I didn't feel as though the writers had a clear idea what they were withholding from us. Nor did they throw in any bones on medical oddities: tetraploidy has occured in a few live births before. C'mon Walter, you should know that!

[Heruss]

My one concern, again I seem to find them, is the writers are driving back as rapidly as possible to "The way things were" instead of trying to build on more minor characters. There's a lot of calls from fringies on this forum to see Astrid more developed and I agree with them whole heartedly, while urging that Lee gets thrown into the mix too. S3 was far too focused on Peter at the end and while interesting it limited the writing towards the other characters and it showed this quite badly at the start of S4, as without Peter they all seemed adrift.

So I guess it's more a general concern, as this episode while absolutely fantastic, harked back too much to those S3 episodes where it could've just been called "Peter Bishop". What I wanted to see was more like the previous couple of episodes, where there was some conflict and back-biting because Peter is too brilliant as a character.

[bonnie scotland]

My one concern, again I seem to find them, is the writers are driving back as rapidly as possible to "The way things were" instead of trying to build on more minor characters. There's a lot of calls from fringies on this forum to see Astrid more developed and I agree with them whole heartedly, while urging that Lee gets thrown into the mix too. S3 was far too focused on Peter at the end and while interesting it limited the writing towards the other characters and it showed this quite badly at the start of S4, as without Peter they all seemed adrift.

So I guess it's more a general concern, as this episode while absolutely fantastic, harked back too much to those S3 episodes where it could've just been called "Peter Bishop". What I wanted to see was more like the previous couple of episodes, where there was some conflict and back-biting because Peter is too brilliant as a character.

I always find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say, but, afraid not entirely here. I would like more Astrid, and I think its a shame that we've had to wait til mid series 4 for her to have any development, and I've argued previously that Nina and Astrid as only one of three female characters in a sea of males have been woefully under-developed- though prepared to accept that Nina may have been half hidden from us in plain sight. I do think though for Peter fans ( and particularly of the P/W dynamic), we had to do without him/them for several eps at the start of this series, but have also been irritated that Peter's emotions and story have been told through other MOTW character experiences rather than his own. I have found this frustrating, and his character is still not quite well enough filled out for me. There have been all kinds of hints, but no real unraveling of his character. And there is only one of him- and only one Nina. Too much time IMO has been spent on secondary characters i.e. Lee who have not progressed the story in any way IMO. The strength of welcome to westfield was that our 3 main protagonists carried the story without any one else. it was proper Fringe. Braw as we would say in Brigadoon

[Heruss]

Perhaps you're right, but the problem was they started that investment into Lee. I'd like to see more of his character in the blueverse as the straighter character to the "Action hero" of the Redverse. Botching it part way through with some rather surface-based problems is essentially crap. In a few episodes his development has felt somewhat botched with his blueverse counterpart.

Lets compare him to Charlie in the earlier seasons after all, within a few episodes we knew more about him just from hinted parts of banter to the point we felt reasonably confident with his red-verse appearance in Season 2, when this process was done back to front with Lee it felt clunky and weird. I think it'd be a waste to have Seth, who is a great actor, botched in this way half the time he appears on screen.

Nina... to be honest about 80% of Nina's character comes from the simply brilliant Blair Brown, she's the veteran actress of the entire cast (she has been acting in film and television for 41 years compared to Noble's 23 considering how ruthless we all think Hollywood can be, that is no mean feat for a female actress) and a solitary look and sentance from her tells you a lot about the character. One thing I always love about shows and certain actors is where they obviously revel in their roles. Brown and Noble both reflect this in their behaviour. One look and change in the facial expression which in some cases is incredibly subtle tells you a lot about her character, she's in control and used to it, incredibly Machiavellian, and has the resources to cope with and ensures that any alterations to her own plans can be absorbed.

Lets try that with Lee!

He's an insomniac, he lost a partner and has snazzy new designer glasses. Uhm....

Yeah.

[djoe]

Thoughts:
-Walter presented an infinite universe model in Season 1. While I've seen forum members point out that the showrunners have abandoned this model, I interpret Fringe as a product that airs on TV, and so I'm not going to abandon parts of S1 it's discussed that Walter was wrong. Of course this leads to incongruities as the production team has changed (and the ideas individuals), but I think it just gives us new 'impossibilities' to explore, not abandon. Both schools-of-thought can survive, there has to be another way, and I promise you Fringies, we will find a way to reconcile them. As far as I understand it, choices are important to those branching, because Walter says so. But there is also randomness to the universe, not to mention a bit of entropy. Throw in the fact that unless Fringe is The Matrix Re-Redux, our choices and timelines do not exist in a vacuum (well, except Peter's).


Anyway, I didn't find anything particularly wrong with the way DNA was written into this episode. But I didn't feel as though the writers had a clear idea what they were withholding from us. Nor did they throw in any bones on medical oddities: tetraploidy has occured in a few live births before. C'mon Walter, you should know that!

I think the show moved away from infinite universes (aka dimensions) because it confuses people. It take it hard to talk about multiple blue universes running in parallel to the current blue universe resulting in Olivia's symptoms. Arm shakes and speech. Unlike OJ I don't view them as a red herring.

I think TPTB are trying to simplify what is going on to keep or draw in more viewers.

[fragaria x phile]

Nina... to be honest about 80% of Nina's character comes from the simply brilliant Blair Brown, she's the veteran actress of the entire cast (she has been acting in film and television for 41 years compared to Noble's 23 considering how ruthless we all think Hollywood can be, that is no mean feat for a female actress) and a solitary look and sentance from her tells you a lot about the character. One thing I always love about shows and certain actors is where they obviously revel in their roles. Brown and Noble both reflect this in their behaviour. One look and change in the facial expression which in some cases is incredibly subtle tells you a lot about her character, she's in control and used to it, incredibly Machiavellian, and has the resources to cope with and ensures that any alterations to her own plans can be absorbed

Yeah.

I love that about Fringe. They all seem so into their roles and the show.

[Omniscient_Jay]

Thoughts:
-Walter presented an infinite universe model in Season 1. While I've seen forum members point out that the showrunners have abandoned this model, I interpret Fringe as a product that airs on TV, and so I'm not going to abandon parts of S1 it's discussed that Walter was wrong. Of course this leads to incongruities as the production team has changed (and the ideas individuals), but I think it just gives us new 'impossibilities' to explore, not abandon. Both schools-of-thought can survive, there has to be another way, and I promise you Fringies, we will find a way to reconcile them. As far as I understand it, choices are important to those branching, because Walter says so. But there is also randomness to the universe, not to mention a bit of entropy. Throw in the fact that unless Fringe is The Matrix Re-Redux, our choices and timelines do not exist in a vacuum (well, except Peter's).

-I've touched upon this elsewhere: What is absolutely hardest thing for me to accept about these two universes, in my opinion, is that (with possible exemptions on Ella and the couple in 6B), we have genetic doppelgangers. So not only to the same people happen to procreate across the world(s), but that practically indistinguishable genes are passed down. Looking at our own world, had my parents conceived me at any other moment, I could be as different from myself as I am from my brother, genotypically.

-Genetic material alone cannot be the common thread between universes. There has to be some drivel about the human spirit of course, as Professor Farnsworth would say. There is a great genetic imbalance between the Red and Blue verse. Entire species of livestock are missing. The differences in communicable disease stats reflect an imbalance between the genetic code of viruses and bacteria. And so there must be something to human DNA that sets it apart from other DNA.

-This is how I reconcile the soul magnet subplot with Fringe overall. I imagine that these universes, the Red and Blue, before the bridge, have been snapped together in a weird 3.5 dimensional way using doppelgangers as anchor points. Also, DNA is involved in the machine's code. Supernatural DNA could help explain the quantum entanglement of humans as whole beings instead of pieces of matter (still not sure how this effects microorganisms that are integral to our bodies with different DNA).

Anyway, I didn't find anything particularly wrong with the way DNA was written into this episode. But I didn't feel as though the writers had a clear idea what they were withholding from us. Nor did they throw in any bones on medical oddities: tetraploidy has occured in a few live births before. C'mon Walter, you should know that!

I have a simple solution to the seemingly impossible similarities between the Blue/Red Worlds, which can be boiled down as thus:

What we see as the Blue/Red Worlds is the result of conflicting influences between their natural inclination to diverge and their quantum entangled states.

It would seem that the two worlds once had a shared origin; which is to say, that they are two "outcomes" of an original singular universe. Because the two worlds start off with different sets of variables, it follows that their paths would diverge, butterfly effects driving them down different paths. As you note, the two worlds couldn't possibly look so similar, because there are so many different variables at play that the two histories should have unfolded in wildly different ways.

And yet, the two worlds are also entangled at the quantum level (which may be a by-product of the circumstances of their shared divergence). If two objects are quantum entangled, then they are said to share the same "state"; in other words, the two objects are technically identical, so if something happens to object A, it immediately happens to object B as well (regardless of distance). The QE wants the two worlds to become one and the same. However, because the two worlds are two different causal outcomes of an event in the past, they can never possibly be 100% identical.

And so we have two conflicting forces at play. The two worlds naturally want to diverge in separate ways, but the QE keeps on reeling them back onto parallel paths, seeking to make them as similar as physically possible. This is how, against impossible odds, we have genetic doppelgangers inhabiting either worlds, as well as how either world's history unfolded so similarly; when something happens in world A, it is carried over to world B as closely as possible, and vice-versa.

In other words, it's a push-and-pull effect of cosmic proportions.

Does this solution allay your concerns, by any chance? I think it is a solid contender to explain the relationship between the worlds and the development of their respective histories.

This is the conclusion I've come to

[djoe]

I have a simple solution to the seemingly impossible similarities between the Blue/Red Worlds, which can be boiled down as thus:

What we see as the Blue/Red Worlds is the result of conflicting influences between their natural inclination to diverge and their quantum entangled states.

It would seem that the two worlds once had a shared origin; which is to say, that they are two "outcomes" of an original singular universe. Because the two worlds start off with different sets of variables, it follows that their paths would diverge, butterfly effects driving them down different paths. As you note, the two worlds couldn't possibly look so similar, because there are so many different variables at play that the two histories should have unfolded in wildly different ways.

And yet, the two worlds are also entangled at the quantum level (which may be a by-product of the circumstances of their shared divergence). If two objects are quantum entangled, then they are said to share the same "state"; in other words, the two objects are technically identical, so if something happens to object A, it immediately happens to object B as well (regardless of distance). The QE wants the two worlds to become one and the same. However, because the two worlds are two different causal outcomes of an event in the past, they can never possibly be 100% identical.

And so we have two conflicting forces at play. The two worlds naturally want to diverge in separate ways, but the QE keeps on reeling them back onto parallel paths, seeking to make them as similar as physically possible. This is how, against impossible odds, we have genetic doppelgangers inhabiting either worlds, as well as how either world's history unfolded so similarly; when something happens in world A, it is carried over to world B as closely as possible, and vice-versa.

In other words, it's a push-and-pull effect of cosmic proportions.

Does this solution allay your concerns, by any chance? I think it is a solid contender to explain the relationship between the worlds and the development of their respective histories.

This is the conclusion I've come to

I agree and disagree.

Their divergence he how they are suppose to be, they are two sides of a coin if you will not exactly a shared origin. The red universe is fifteen years ahead of the blue universe in terms of technology among other things. The players though remain the same(that would be an expense on having more cast members). The history of the Red universe has not been explored sadly. The quantum entanglement is a bi-product of one man trying to save an alternate version of his son. They are meant to be on separate parallel paths QE does not influence this. When you say

when something happens in world A, it is carried over to world B as closely as possible, and vice-versa.

That does not match up with the Fringe division buildings between the two sides, yes they are in the same location apart from that the buildings themselves are radically different. Zeppelins is another example one world uses them the other does not. What QE was doing was breaking the universes apart ( killing them both) due to them being incapable with one another, and that is why Peter had to step into the machine in the first place. In essence Peter made them compatible. Their current QE status is to be linked together (they are already one).

[Omniscient_Jay]

I agree and disagree.

Their divergence he how they are suppose to be, they are two sides of a coin if you will not exactly a shared origin. The red universe is fifteen years ahead of the blue universe in terms of technology among other things. The players though remain the same(that would be an expense on having more cast members). The history of the Red universe has not been explored sadly. The quantum entanglement is a bi-product of one man trying to save an alternate version of his son. They are meant to be on separate parallel paths QE does not influence this. When you say That does not match up with the Fringe division buildings between the two sides, yes they are in the same location apart from that the buildings themselves are radically different. Zeppelins is another example one world uses them the other does not. What QE was doing was breaking the universes apart ( killing them both) due to them being incapable with one another, and that is why Peter had to step into the machine in the first place. In essence Peter made them compatible. Their current QE status is to be linked together (they are already one).

So they are two worlds that just so happen to be similar, which were then QE'd by Walter's crossing? I don't think Walter's crossing was powerful enough an event to make it so two entire universes became entangled at the quantum level. Besides, it means the Red World is a random world that just so happened to be there, and held no prior significance other than Walter just happening to have located it. Also, remember that in that timeline, there was a time loop in effect, which further complicates things.

More importantly, this would mean that the two worlds have potentially very different causal origins, which would mean that their respective histories prior to 1985 could (and should) have been wildly different.

For this reason, I would assert that the two world share a common causal origin, as they then have the foundation for future similarity. Also, whatever caused the two worlds to have once diverged must necessarily be what caused their QE'd states, because otherwise, they would have no current connection to each other, and theoretically, they should have diverged into very different paths, because if either world begins with variable set A and B respectively, butterfly effects will cause similarities to stray further and further apart.

In other words, any difference between the two worlds is due to the different sets of variables they started out with at the moment of their respective inceptions; the QE cannot take full effect because it tries to account for two distinct sets of elements, and can thus only make broad approximations of either world's events upon the other.

And when I explain the "carry-over" principle of QE, I make sure to say as close as possible, because naturally, there are some things the Blue World has that the Red World doesn't has, and vice versa.

For instance, both worlds came to develop Zeppelins; however the Blue World presumably had the Hindenburg Incident whereas the Red World did not, so the latter went on to develop Zeppelins (while the Blue one did not). Likewise, both worlds came to develop Fringe Divisions, but due to prior circumstances in each world, they ended up in different locations and worked under different organizations (i.e. since the FBI was shut down in ~2000, the Fringe Division was formed under the DOD instead of like it was in the Blue World, where the FBI remained).

As I said, it's a push and pull effect. The QE doesn't always win, and the natural causal divergence doesn't always win; the histories are products of conflict between opposing forces.

What made the two worlds begin to decay was Walter's crossing; the Red World began to suffer, so that degradation was starting to carry over via the QE. And when the Red World was destroyed, the Blue World was forced to follow due to the QE (though because of delay principles present in the Fringe world, these things were not immediate).

And lastly, the QE does make the world's one, but not in the physical; it is only a technicality, because the two worlds possess distinct causal identities (or histories). They are rather like two halves of a whole more than a singular entity.