Peter's "importance"

[Omniscient_Jay]

Now it looks like Peter is important because he is Henry's father and not Walter's son. I don't know Henry, and he's still just a nugget, and hasn't made any choices. Therefore, he is hardly a full person yet. And that is why I am really reluctant to embrace this new direction.

This last part is of concern to me as well. It seems to say that Peter is only important because Henry*** is (as the Peter/Olivia union and ensuing child is a major historical stepping-stone), which implies Peter is not important in his own right; in other words, his importance is solely contingent on the "Destiny Child".

Perhaps when the reason Henry is so important is explained, it will contextualize this development in a more palatable light, but as of now, things seem disconcerting.

***Altlivia chose the name Henry after the cabbie of the same name; I doubt the child P/O had in the history before September interfered was called Henry, and I also doubt that if a child is born of P/O in this timeline that they would name him Henry either.

[fragaria x phile]

This last part is of concern to me as well. It seems to say that Peter is only important because Henry*** is (as the Peter/Olivia union and ensuing child is a major historical stepping-stone), which implies Peter is not important in his own right; in other words, his importance is solely contingent on the "Destiny Child".

Perhaps when the reason Henry is so important is explained, it will contextualize this development in a more palatable light, but as of now, things seem disconcerting.

***Altlivia chose the name Henry after the cabbie of the same name; I doubt the child P/O had in the history before September interfered was called Henry, and I also doubt that if a child is born of P/O in this timeline that they would name him Henry either.

On Henry:You know, I was about to argue that alternates always have the same name (if they make it past the perinatal phase, we still don't know exactly what was behind Altlivia's "Ella...." in that awesome scene), but this would not be an alternate. This is a baby with no possibility of an alternate, just a half brother/half alternate.

It's been discussed in some parts of the forum (you were there!) that the way in which baby Henry was first portrayed was weak at best and misogynistic at worst (even the Olivias have been defined by their roles as a man's girlfriend and mother). Well, if they go too far down this road it seems that they'll at least be gender neutral on this. I'm not arguing against defining people in part by their relationships; this is Fringe after all, and relationships are extremely important. But I do have something against the free-will, choices, and lives of exigent adults being trumped by a baby.

Aside from that, we already have a character who's existence in one world or another as a child has made him an involuntary pawn in the future of the universes: Peter. I'd rather work with the families and people we already have in the show, before adding a new generation.

I agree that this story has a lot of potential. I am getting disconcerting because while trying to remain spoiler free, it's been impossible to fangirl on the internet without coming across the tidbits from EPs hinting that it's all about love and that they are destined for each other. Also, since about the middle of S3 (at the height of the mythos), the sci-fi writing became embarrassingly weak. B-lymphocytes in Olivia. Soul Magnets in Stowaway. The accellerated pregnancy and round-about-DNA gathering in Bloodline (unless there's more to this that we haven't seen yet). Independently these things can be overlooked, but they signal and increasing movement away from the sci-fi and toward fantasy. This further worries me that the intricacies of the 1985 flashbacks, Peter and Olivia's finding each other as children (which gives much more credence to the power of their relationship than anything we've seen so far, seeing as they found each other during extremely traumatic times), the role of ZFT in all timelines, and the firefly effect will be fudged around or mishandled in order to serve a story of Peter and Olivia finding home in each other and starting a family.

2026 was a nice glimpse into that, and I do wish them an opportunity to actually BE together before they're ripped apart again. I love them together and I think that their happiness in S2-S3 is tied to each other because, I mean, look around. But I don't ship them because I'd hate for their relationship as a couple to overshadow their relationship as two unbelievably special people with a great dynamic or the other relationships.

I hope the writers prove my worry wrong!

A reference to the Henry Discussion (let's all remember to be careful not to post information that we've learned in 414 in that thread) we had back before 4x14

[Omniscient_Jay]

On Henry:You know, I was about to argue that alternates always have the same name (if they make it past the perinatal phase, we still don't know exactly what was behind Altlivia's "Ella...." in that awesome scene), but this would not be an alternate. This is a baby with no possibility of an alternate, just a half brother/half alternate.

It's been discussed in some parts of the forum (you were there!) that the way in which baby Henry was first portrayed was weak at best and misogynistic at worst (even the Olivias have been defined by their roles as a man's girlfriend and mother). Well, if they go too far down this road it seems that they'll at least be gender neutral on this. I'm not arguing against defining people in part by their relationships; this is Fringe after all, and relationships are extremely important. But I do have something against the free-will, choices, and lives of exigent adults being trumped by a baby.

Aside from that, we already have a character who's existence in one world or another as a child has made him an involuntary pawn in the future of the universes: Peter. I'd rather work with the families and people we already have in the show, before adding a new generation.

Precisely.

I agree that this story has a lot of potential. I am getting disconcerting because while trying to remain spoiler free, it's been impossible to fangirl on the internet without coming across the tidbits from EPs hinting that it's all about love and that they are destined for each other. Also, since about the middle of S3 (at the height of the mythos), the sci-fi writing became embarrassingly weak. B-lymphocytes in Olivia. Soul Magnets in Stowaway. The accellerated pregnancy and round-about-DNA gathering in Bloodline (unless there's more to this that we haven't seen yet). Independently these things can be overlooked, but they signal and increasing movement away from the sci-fi and toward fantasy. This further worries me that the intricacies of the 1985 flashbacks, Peter and Olivia's finding each other as children (which gives much more credence to the power of their relationship than anything we've seen so far, seeing as they found each other during extremely traumatic times), the role of ZFT in all timelines, and the firefly effect will be fudged around or mishandled in order to serve a story of Peter and Olivia finding home in each other and starting a family.

2026 was a nice glimpse into that, and I do wish them an opportunity to actually BE together before they're ripped apart again. I love them together and I think that their happiness in S2-S3 is tied to each other because, I mean, look around. But I don't ship them because I'd hate for their relationship as a couple to overshadow their relationship as two unbelievably special people with a great dynamic or the other relationships.

I hope the writers prove my worry wrong!

A reference to the Henry Discussion (let's all remember to be careful not to post information that we've learned in 414 in that thread) we had back before 4x14

The shift of balance has indeed been a perturbing one. What truly worries me is that they will begin to take ZFT and other mythos elements to service the love story. They're already playing with such fire with September's scene in 4.14, where he made Peter and Olivia out as destined, star-crossed lovers***; hopefully, ZFT's existence (among other things) will not be relegated to such things.

I also agree about the wonky science in S3; those three are actually the biggest three mishaps, which is unfortunate since they informed three large arcs of the season (Olivia's brainwashing, Bell's return, and the use of Henry's blood for the machine).

As for actually wanting Peter/Olivia to be together, they've handled it too poorly to not make any union not marred by disillusionment. My definitive stance is that Peter and Olivia are free to hook up, so long as I don't have to sit through it onscreen.


***I'm crossing my fingers that September is only trying to restore balance in this way by trying to replicate the version of history that existed before his intervention, in which case it's not that a P/O union is of be-all, end-all importance, but is rather important in the context of a stable timeline configuration.

[fragaria x phile]

The shift of balance has indeed been a perturbing one. What truly worries me is that they will begin to take ZFT and other mythos elements to service the love story. They're already playing with such fire with September's scene in 4.14, where he made Peter and Olivia out as destined, star-crossed lovers***; hopefully, ZFT's existence (among other things) will not be relegated to such things.

I also agree about the wonky science in S3; those three are actually the biggest three mishaps, which is unfortunate since they informed three large arcs of the season (Olivia's brainwashing, Bell's return, and the use of Henry's blood for the machine).

So true. These weren't just COTW episodes that we can divorce ourselves from when we can't buy into what they're selling. Obviously, science fiction is always science fiction (on top of the fact that this isn't a sci-fi show above all us). But like many of us have discussed, there were points on S3 where it just felt lazy. Heck, even in Welcome to Westfield--in which we have a truly Fringe-feeling episode that I think was a pretty good mix of P/O moments within a great episode--there was a great opportunity to drop in a few more lines of tetraploidy in humans and such, but we didn't get it. Perhaps they cut the science advisors off the payroll to save money with the faltering ratings?

As for actually wanting Peter/Olivia to be together, they've handled it too poorly to not make any union not marred by disillusionment. My definitive stance is that Peter and Olivia are free to hook up, so long as I don't have to sit through it onscreen.


***I'm crossing my fingers that September is only trying to restore balance in this way by trying to replicate the version of history that existed before his intervention, in which case it's not that a P/O union is of be-all, end-all importance, but is rather important in the context of a stable timeline configuration.

You probably aren't going to like this...but this episode makes me hope that the Observers are going to develop into another faction of people trying to get what they want out of the lives of these people.

And if September really is near omniscient and the writers will follow their perspective in writing toward the endgame...well maybe the Observer wants Olivia and Peter to get together because he knows that even though they are in love, they will reset the timelines once again (pre-September intervention in the lake AND pre-September intervention in the lab). Olivia was the one to give the message to Peter to "Be a Better Man." Olivia brings out the more noble aspects of Peter's persona. And Olivia herself is "a soldier, a protector." Much like Altlivia, she's willing to put her world above her family, so I hope. So there's stillplenty of ways to reconcile 4x14 with the rest of the series, so long as the writers don't miss what's right under their noses.

[djshotty]

so long as the writers don't miss what's right under their noses.

Yeh, but we fans rarely get what we want to happen...
Anyway, just a couple more sleeps to go, yay...

[jade86]

This last part is of concern to me as well. It seems to say that Peter is only important because Henry*** is (as the Peter/Olivia union and ensuing child is a major historical stepping-stone), which implies Peter is not important in his own right; in other words, his importance is solely contingent on the "Destiny Child".

Perhaps when the reason Henry is so important is explained, it will contextualize this development in a more palatable light, but as of now, things seem disconcerting.

***Altlivia chose the name Henry after the cabbie of the same name; I doubt the child P/O had in the history before September interfered was called Henry, and I also doubt that if a child is born of P/O in this timeline that they would name him Henry either.

Wyman said on twitter "mmmm....september said a lot of things..." referred to the observer's comment about peter/olivia destiny and their theorical child. It's like he was saying that what september said might be not the truth. In fact it was like september said what peter wanted to listen, making him believe that her olivia is somewhere (and the fact that he shows peter that version of his olivia from LSD is not a coincidence), that they're destinied ecc. I think the observer wanted peter enter his mind for a specific reason, nothing to do with olivia because he didn't want to talk about her, but maybe he wanted to do something to peter that will have to do with his eye in the next episode. September knows peter's importance (nothing to do with future babies....because,come on, this is ridicolous!) and knows he would do everything for her, so it's possible that his intention was to take advantage of Peter's strong love for Olivia to lead him of doing something.

[Omniscient_Jay]

You probably aren't going to like this...but this episode makes me hope that the Observers are going to develop into another faction of people trying to get what they want out of the lives of these people.

And if September really is near omniscient and the writers will follow their perspective in writing toward the endgame...well maybe the Observer wants Olivia and Peter to get together because he knows that even though they are in love, they will reset the timelines once again (pre-September intervention in the lake AND pre-September intervention in the lab). Olivia was the one to give the message to Peter to "Be a Better Man." Olivia brings out the more noble aspects of Peter's persona. And Olivia herself is "a soldier, a protector." Much like Altlivia, she's willing to put her world above her family, so I hope. So there's stillplenty of ways to reconcile 4x14 with the rest of the series, so long as the writers don't miss what's right under their noses.

But... I generally agree with this.

My current interpretation of September's plans is that he is trying to have his cake and eat it too. The Observers are already pleased with the current Peter-less world, wherein Peter is not necessary; but September's lingering attachment to Peter has incited him to make it so that he is important (as the other Observers perceive him as a negative influence). So September is attempting to steer things into the most stable configuration he knows, which is the history that existed prior to his mistake (because that history apparently led to the potential Observer future).

Wyman said on twitter "mmmm....september said a lot of things..." referred to the observer's comment about peter/olivia destiny and their theorical child. It's like he was saying that what september said might be not the truth. In fact it was like september said what peter wanted to listen, making him believe that her olivia is somewhere (and the fact that he shows peter that version of his olivia from LSD is not a coincidence), that they're destinied ecc. I think the observer wanted peter enter his mind for a specific reason, nothing to do with olivia because he didn't want to talk about her, but maybe he wanted to do something to peter that will have to do with his eye in the next episode. September knows peter's importance (nothing to do with future babies....because,come on, this is ridicolous!) and knows he would do everything for her, so it's possible that his intention was to take advantage of Peter's strong love for Olivia to lead him of doing something.

This is something I have considered also; that September is, for lack of better term, manipulating Peter (and Olivia) down a road he perceives as being most beneficial.

However, I would think that mentioning the child is not without reason; which is to say, that the child has some importance*** (and that Peter's importance is in part linked to it), but I wouldn't be surprised if September was not telling the whole story.


***Not that I approve of this importance, however. o.o

[jophan]

Peter's primary importance was that he built the bridge. September said he had "served his purpose" once that was complete. If Henry had never been born, I think Peter would have lived out his life with Olivia. But Henry somehow would have become a danger to the Observers future-of-origin, and so September changed the past.

Presumably Peter would have built the bridge for other reasons if he had been raised in his own world among his own family. But failure, destruction of a world and new loops through time might have resulted. So eliminating him (and that pesky baby) after the bridge was built provided a less risky solution.

[JodyA]

September knows peter's importance (nothing to do with future babies....because,come on, this is ridicolous!) and knows he would do everything for her, so it's possible that his intention was to take advantage of Peter's strong love for Olivia to lead him of doing something.

Very reminiscent of Jones' comment to Olivia about every creature needing incentive to perform tasks. Are both Peter AND Olivia being manipulated for someone else's purpose? Together their "energy" is amazing. For Olivia it can act as literal power source. For Peter it could enhance his more "creative" side, i.e. push him to think of and invent things, not be self-serving, think of consequences for the greater good. Things he was not before he met Olivia. It does not just have to be about a child, although having one would also add a new dimension to their relationship. Having children makes one cognizant of the world it grows up in. Remember in 2026 of the old timeline, Olivia did not want to have children in the world they lived in and Peter did? Children can inspire hope to work for change. They are, as was said in the ZFT ethics chapter, the best hope or asset for the future: ""Our children are our greatest resource. We must nurture them and protect them. We must prepare them, so they can one day protect us." (Quote from ZFT book, chapter of ethics).