"Numbers Make Everything Work"

[D-Roc]

..The words of agent Mitchel Loeb as he was about to demonstrate the pulling an apple through solid door trick.

For those following the viral/ARG throughout the summer, this will surely trigger memories of the Fibonacci Sequence/Golden Ratio etc, where it was alluded that Fringe would touch on the very real idea that special sequences of numbers can create 'impossible' perfection.

So, going back to what Mitchel Loeb said about numbers making everything work, my thinking is that by retriving or completing 'natures fingerprints' (numbers, sequences) they (the people he works for) are using these numbers as an extension of their purpose - to create impossibilities, such as phasing matter through solid objects, and creating organisms which are not manufactured by God/natural selection.

Here's a short video which will hopefully lend itself to this area of discussion.

YouTube - Fingerprints of God

Anyone see any parallels there with recent "Fringe" events? I guess I'm interested in defining the possible ramifications of Loeb's use of nature to create improbable happenings..

[agntdunham]

This is very intriguing. I thought it was particularly interesting that one of the things they showed as relating to the Fibonnaci sequence was a finger! Since one of our clues is a six-fingered hand-print. Great find, D, and I plan to follow this thread to see what others think.

[Fringeling]

Not to sound to totally snobbish, but the idea of mathematics and numbers dictating everything around us is as old as, well -- mathematics

It is essentially mathematical "kabbalah". An interesting thought: most of us (I think) have assumed some kind of time-travel will be integrated into the show. What if there is no time travel, but rather predictions of the future coming true based off of mathematical equations? What if someone has figured out that not only do "numbers make everything work", but that "numbers will tell us WHEN things will work"? For example, an equation thirty years ago will tell someone when I will put bread in my toaster this Thursday?

What if we all "vibrate" at certain frequencies, a sort of quantum fingerprint ----- and we are nothing more than physical expressions of variable to an equation. Our lives are dictated by this Theory of Everything. When we go to work, when we get fired, when we get headaches ----- all part of a predictable mathmatical formula. Perhaps what some of the groups in Fringe have discovered is how to adjust certain variables to produce certain outcomes within the framework of the formulaic environment. If this is so, than obviously Olivia Dunham is a key part of this equation (as is the state of Mass!) in which most things seem to pivot.

So perhaps it goes beyond "creating the impossible". Perhaps that is what is meant in the next episode by "the Pattern is just a smoke screen." The Pattern is nothing more than the physical expression of something much deeper going on. When you manipulate one part of the equation to the Theory of EVerything (TTOE), radical consequences happen. Ex: Olivia gets manipulated to feel sadness on Tuesday, and a hundred head of cattle are born with human organs in Wyoming. In this way, the Pattern is more of a consequence of a deeper experimentation ---- a tweaking to the equation of history.

Just some thoughts ...

[cmcg16]

Yeah, I agree D-Roc. Perhaps somehow "they" have cracked the hidden meaning of the Fibonnacci Sequence in nature, and have thus used it to 'create the impossible'. Maybe, solving or completing this mystery so to speak has led them to create new Equations, such as the one in 1.08. These new discoveries will lead them to open new doors into fields of science and beyond that were once believed impossible. "Imagine the Impossibilities!"
Perhaps Walter was the one who originally revealed the connection behind the Fibonnacci sequence and other natural phenomena (the shell's spiral, the ram's horn, the six fingered hand..etc). Once he was put into St. Claires (for reasons most likely related to the pattern.. i dont trust that Sumner guy!!), Bell took their findings and created what is now known as Massive Dynamics...and with these discoveries they can basically do anything (What do we do? What dont we do!) Maybe, after these years the ramifications of this use of Walter's discovery or whatever you want to call it has created the Pattern, or something that the Pattern is just covering up, as mentioned in the preview for 1.09 . Possibly whatever manipulations to the environment etc "they" have been doing throughout the years has caused something terribly bad to happen..
Maybe nature is better left alone? As Walter once mentioned...Even though it is hard to control yourself from playing God, you are better off not.

haha, I'm sure this connection has been discussed in similar forms before, but just some ideas

So perhaps it goes beyond "creating the impossible". Perhaps that is what is meant in the next episode by "the Pattern is just a smoke screen." The Pattern is nothing more than the physical expression of something much deeper going on. When you manipulate one part of the equation to the Theory of EVerything (TTOE), radical consequences happen. Ex: Olivia gets manipulated to feel sadness on Tuesday, and a hundred head of cattle are born with human organs in Wyoming. In this way, the Pattern is more of a consequence of a deeper experimentation ---- a tweaking to the equation of history.

Thats really interesting, Fringeling! I like the idea that the Pattern is only the physical repercussions of whatever is really going on behind the scenes...

[D-Roc]

This is very intriguing. I thought it was particularly interesting that one of the things they showed as relating to the Fibonnaci sequence was a finger! Since one of our clues is a six-fingered hand-print. Great find, D, and I plan to follow this thread to see what others think.

Good point - for fringerprint see handprint?

Not to sound to totally snobbish, but the idea of mathematics and numbers dictating everything around us is as old as, well -- mathematics

No doubt. I'm just presenting this now because this latest episode seems the most 'connected' to the Fibonacci Sequence and Golden Ratio (etc). I followed the Fringe ARG throughout the summer, so I guess I had some curiousity in whether or not these things would be presented on the show in some abstract way. I agree that it's hardly ground-breaking stuff for many people, but I appreciated the comment by Loeb, as it gives us some indication that the Pattern could indeed be a play on some of our most famous Mathematical sequences.

It is essentially mathematical "kabbalah". An interesting thought: most of us (I think) have assumed some kind of time-travel will be integrated into the show. What if there is no time travel, but rather predictions of the future coming true based off of mathematical equations? What if someone has figured out that not only do "numbers make everything work", but that "numbers will tell us WHEN things will work"? For example, an equation thirty years ago will tell someone when I will put bread in my toaster this Thursday?

Interesting. I'm of the idea that for future reality to exist, one must experience it (be it via time-travel, evolution, observation, patience or whathaveyou), so being able to predict the future based on calculations conflicts with that a bit, but is an interesting premise. Do you think these predictions would be as accurate as observing/experiencing them would be, or would they be a best-fit or approximation?

Yeah, I agree D-Roc. Perhaps somehow "they" have cracked the hidden meaning of the Fibonnacci Sequence in nature, and have thus used it to 'create the impossible'. Maybe, solving or completing this mystery so to speak has led them to create new Equations, such as the one in 1.08. These new discoveries will lead them to open new doors into fields of science and beyond that were once believed impossible. "Imagine the Impossibilities!"
Perhaps Walter was the one who originally revealed the connection behind the Fibonnacci sequence and other natural phenomena (the shell's spiral, the ram's horn, the six fingered hand..etc). Once he was put into St. Claires (for reasons most likely related to the pattern.. i dont trust that Sumner guy!!), Bell took their findings and created what is now known as Massive Dynamics...and with these discoveries they can basically do anything (What do we do? What dont we do!) Maybe, after these years the ramifications of this use of Walter's discovery or whatever you want to call it has created the Pattern, or something that the Pattern is just covering up, as mentioned in the preview for 1.09 . Possibly whatever manipulations to the environment etc "they" have been doing throughout the years has caused something terribly bad to happen..
Maybe nature is better left alone? As Walter once mentioned...Even though it is hard to control yourself from playing God, you are better off not.

Good points! Yeah, it could be speculated that 'they' have not only unlocked natures hidden equations, but that they are finding ways to extend these equations to create possibilities far ahead of our current evolutionary curve. In a way it could be seen as mankind 'cheating' nature/God.

Yeah, Bellie is a fishy one - I'm not sure what side he's on yet (is anyone ?), but he must be integral to whatever is happening with the Pattern. He's benefitted financially from a world seeking order. But is he the fire-starter, or one of the many powerful individuals caught up on one string of a massive spider's web?..

[The Marked Mouse]

If numbers make everything work in the Fringe universe, then all electrical devices especially lights could be manipulation devices. This includes all those flickering lights seen from Episode 1 onward.

Also, the fact that the hypnotic lights are green and red, this makes any street light in the U.S. capable of hypnotizing drivers in any part of the country.

[Fringeling]

Interesting. I'm of the idea that for future reality to exist, one must experience it (be it via time-travel, evolution, observation, patience or whathaveyou), so being able to predict the future based on calculations conflicts with that a bit, but is an interesting premise. Do you think these predictions would be as accurate as observing/experiencing them would be, or would they be a best-fit or approximation?

I think in some instances,by predicting the future with an equation, they might be a best-fit or approximation. We already do this ourselves quite frequently --- economics, statsitics, weather patterns, etc. We tend to use data collection more than all-inclusive equations, but perhaps in the Fringe world they have figured out such equations.

I think time as regards to future events is more or less predictable within controlled environments. For example, if I give a lab rat a well known and predictable poison, I can predict pretty closely to when it will die. Have I predicted the future? Another more complicated example is like an analogical (word?) train. When a train sets out on it's track with it's passengers, it is a controlled environment with it's passengers, cargo, and it's chosen destination. We know where it will begin and the obvious end. The people on the train have a certain amount of free will, but it is limited by their environment. They can only choose from the foods supplied by the train, only maneuver within the confines of the cabin, etc. There is not an endless amount of variables to consider. There are A LOT of variables, but not an endless amount. And the train will arrive at it's destination within a given time frame. If an instance prevents the trains arrival (an accident, an explosion, an unexpected stop, a meteor hitting it, whatever), there is only a certain amount of things to consider. There is not an endless amount. And there is a higher probability that certain things will happen as opposed to other things happening. There is a higher probability that the train could wreck and end up a hundred yards off the track ---- while there is a lower probability a dinosaur will bite in to the train tossing it into space.

My point (I think), is that although there maybe a large amount of variables to consider, there are certain end results that can be predicted using models, data, mathmatics, etc. This would include the earth with it's 6.5 billion inhabitants, since the earth is a controlled environment. Now, data and statistics do not always seem to be related to equations, but consider the following analogy-------- data gathered over time is nothing more than a 2dimensional observation of a 3dimensional equation? In other words, suppose we gather data by poll about peoples preferences over baked or fried potato chips. One would think this data would not exist until we gathered it. Or that it was influenced by peoples free will and each persons choice could not be predicted due to the massive dynamics (hah) involved. But what if the poll results already existed, determined by an equation governing peoples choices? What if the peoples choices were actually controlled by an underlying equation where even their ability to choose differently if they wanted was part of the calculation? The data that would be gathered would merely be the expression of something deeper --- an equation controlling it's foundation. In this way, we would not actually be collecting data at all like we thought we were -------- what we'd actually be doing is discovering patterns about an equation that was already working itself out! Our data collected would only be observing in simple numbers something that already existed in a more complex form.

I hope I'm describing this in a non-sensical fashion!

One last attempt, cause I like the idea ----
We often consider mathmatics as having set componenets that do not change. For example, 1 is 1, 1+1=2, phi is phi, etc. Certain parts of math are variable (like in algebraic equations or calculus or most things), but those variables are dependent upon solid numerical bases. What if mathmatics is NOT solid? What if 1 can be 4, and 1+3=phi? What if all of math breaks down at a certain point, and that certain point just happens to dictate all of what we experience on this plain of existence? We already know things like this happen at event horizons, on the quantum level, etc --- and I know this is already understood at these levels to varying degrees --- but as regards to an equation predicing the future, what if there are "rubbery variables" so to speak, that are dependable even though they can fluctuate? In this way, one could find an exact equation that takes into account all variables --- even free will ---- to accurately predict a future, even one with multiple outcomes, because you would know which components to tweak in order to produce certain outcomes.

I think I might have sounded like a madman !!!

[Fringeling]

If numbers make everything work in the Fringe universe, then all electrical devices especially lights could be manipulation devices. This includes all those flickering lights seen from Episode 1 onward.

Also, the fact that the hypnotic lights are green and red, this makes any street light in the U.S. capable of hypnotizing drivers in any part of the country.

Yeah I thought about the fact that red and green traffic lights surround us as well! And they do control our minds --- they cause us to stop or go forward They can even cause panic or fear.

[Shadnic]

Just my opinion:

I love this stuff; the golden ratio, Fibonacci numbers, the fact that the entirety of existence could be based on numeric equations and ratios. It's all so interesting to think about!!

However I don't think that this is the whole purpose of this show. Maybe we'll have a few episodes about the golden ratio and perfection in nature, but honestly, if this was the plot of the entire show, then there would SURELY be either a seashell, galaxy, sunflower, pine-cone, or a fingerprint as one of those little Fringe posters fox posted around before the show came out. Instead we see a 6-fingered hand, a frog, butterfly, flower, apple, seahorse, and forgive me if I'm forgetting anything else.

Now we could go out on a huge limb and say that the daisy-looking flower represents a sunflower, and that the 6th finger on the hand is supposed to represent something, but I think these images are supposed to have some clue as to something later on, and when it gets revealed in the show we're supposed to go "OOOOHH, THE APPLE!". None of the images we have would jerk that kind of reaction to a golden ratio episode, unless they tied the curl of a seahorse's tail to it (and I haven't even looked at that picture recently to see if there is one).

Then again, I never watched Lost, so I don't really know how far these things tend to go. Anyway, just my two cents

[D-Roc]

I think in some instances,by predicting the future with an equation, they might be a best-fit or approximation. We already do this ourselves quite frequently --- economics, statsitics, weather patterns, etc. We tend to use data collection more than all-inclusive equations, but perhaps in the Fringe world they have figured out such equations.

Good example. I guess in this sense life becomes a game or a 'gamble', using past experience and knowledge to estimate future outcomes.

I think time as regards to future events is more or less predictable within controlled environments. For example, if I give a lab rat a well known and predictable poison, I can predict pretty closely to when it will die. Have I predicted the future? Another more complicated example is like an analogical (word?) train. When a train sets out on it's track with it's passengers, it is a controlled environment with it's passengers, cargo, and it's chosen destination. We know where it will begin and the obvious end. The people on the train have a certain amount of free will, but it is limited by their environment. They can only choose from the foods supplied by the train, only maneuver within the confines of the cabin, etc. There is not an endless amount of variables to consider. There are A LOT of variables, but not an endless amount. And the train will arrive at it's destination within a given time frame. If an instance prevents the trains arrival (an accident, an explosion, an unexpected stop, a meteor hitting it, whatever), there is only a certain amount of things to consider. There is not an endless amount. And there is a higher probability that certain things will happen as opposed to other things happening. There is a higher probability that the train could wreck and end up a hundred yards off the track ---- while there is a lower probability a dinosaur will bite in to the train tossing it into space.

Yeah, I agree, in a controlled environment with a limited number of variables or outside forces, one can predict the future far more accurately. With this in mind it could suggest that everyone and everything is connected, or related, by some universal bond. No-one is outside of the loop, no-one has true freewill to escape the numbers, and their predicted outcomes.

Perhaps one way to claim some semblance of freewill is to somehow increase the number of variables - I guess the only way to do this is to step ouside of the loop - which leads me back to time-travel

My point (I think), is that although there maybe a large amount of variables to consider, there are certain end results that can be predicted using models, data, mathmatics, etc. This would include the earth with it's 6.5 billion inhabitants, since the earth is a controlled environment. Now, data and statistics do not always seem to be related to equations, but consider the following analogy-------- data gathered over time is nothing more than a 2dimensional observation of a 3dimensional equation? In other words, suppose we gather data by poll about peoples preferences over baked or fried potato chips. One would think this data would not exist until we gathered it. Or that it was influenced by peoples free will and each persons choice could not be predicted due to the massive dynamics (hah) involved. But what if the poll results already existed, determined by an equation governing peoples choices? What if the peoples choices were actually controlled by an underlying equation where even their ability to choose differently if they wanted was part of the calculation? The data that would be gathered would merely be the expression of something deeper --- an equation controlling it's foundation. In this way, we would not actually be collecting data at all like we thought we were -------- what we'd actually be doing is discovering patterns about an equation that was already working itself out! Our data collected would only be observing in simple numbers something that already existed in a more complex form.

Very interesting. So in a sense, we could be looking at predetermination? A set of numbers or an underlying equation that governs individual choice in both time and space.

As you say, we would merely be able to discover and record (observe) patterns about our predetermined state..rendering us puppets..puppets on strings.

Just my opinion:

I love this stuff; the golden ratio, Fibonacci numbers, the fact that the entirety of existence could be based on numeric equations and ratios. It's all so interesting to think about!!

However I don't think that this is the whole purpose of this show. Maybe we'll have a few episodes about the golden ratio and perfection in nature, but honestly, if this was the plot of the entire show, then there would SURELY be either a seashell, galaxy, sunflower, pine-cone, or a fingerprint as one of those little Fringe posters fox posted around before the show came out. Instead we see a 6-fingered hand, a frog, butterfly, flower, apple, seahorse, and forgive me if I'm forgetting anything else.

Welcome!

I agree, this wont be the entire premise of the show, rather one small element or one of the underlying themes from which they can build on.

Now we could go out on a huge limb and say that the daisy-looking flower represents a sunflower, and that the 6th finger on the hand is supposed to represent something, but I think these images are supposed to have some clue as to something later on, and when it gets revealed in the show we're supposed to go "OOOOHH, THE APPLE!". None of the images we have would jerk that kind of reaction to a golden ratio episode, unless they tied the curl of a seahorse's tail to it (and I haven't even looked at that picture recently to see if there is one).

I agree, I think the glyphs will make much more sense by the time the 1st season is over. For now, it's fun to speculate and put the pieces together..if only to see if we can envisage where the writers might be going with these early themes/interactive elements.