Wondercon 2012 Fringe Cast Q&A With Fans, Joshua Jackson says WHAT!?!

[PB]

Oi, PB; you forgot to post Part 1 of the panel, which I will do now:

[SEE OPENING POST]

If you edit your first post to include this video, I'll remove it from this post, just to keep things organized.

Anyway...

As far as Peter+Machine=Erasure, there exists a lack of causal connection between Peter's use of the machine and his erasure.

If September goes back and doesn't save Peter as a child, then he doesn't grow up to become an adult, making the Peter that is at Liberty Island as an adult an anomaly, which would obviously erase him, as the events leading up to his adulthood were invalidated. And as per March's words in 4.11, it would seem that September's un-saving was deliberate ("the night he did not save the Boy"), so that the Observers were the catalyst for Peter's erasure is more probable.

This is more clear a connection than the machine being the cause of erasure, as there has been nothing to imply or demonstrate that such a connection exists. It seems more that either the Observers waited for Peter to use the machine and create the Bridge before erasing Peter (thus erasing Henry by proxy), or that the machine set up the circumstances that allowed them to physically take back or alter their past actions (i.e. September at Reiden). In either case, if September had not gone back and invalidate Peter's causal history, then I doubt he would have been erased anyway, unless there is some other element at play that has yet to be revealed/touched upon.

One of the things that peeked my interest in Joshua Jackson's perspective on Peter's erasure is how close he is to the story. Not only is he a member of the cast but an actual writer of Fringe canon now that he's lending his creative abilities to the "Beyond the Fringe" comics. When Peter first disappeared from the timeline at the end of Season Three I immediately began fabricating a multitude of time travel related explanations for how Peter's changing the present, and thus the future, might result in his complete disappearance from the past (and thusly present and future). All of these theories were met skepticism and good counter arguments and I have since acquiesced in favor of the Observers removing Peter from time theory because it's less convoluted and as O.J. suggests has evidence to support it.

One theory if you wanted to go down that road is that Peter's birth in the Season 1-3 timeline was the result of actions taken by Walter in one iteration of the cyclical 2016 future. In other words, actions taken in the future using a wormhole to cause changes in the past that result in Peter's birth in the 1970's. Again, I have since relinquished this theory in favor of the Observers actions resulting in Peter's erasure. But I've read speculation elsewhere that Peter's actions in the machine may have caused his erasure and the Observers' (specifically September's) retroactive correction of mistakes in the past were actually just an example of them "cleaning up" the timeline (Because in a world where Peter no longer exists neither can his birth or September's actions in the past when he saves Peter from the lake. . . but Peter being erased doesn't change September's actions of saving a boy from the lake because September's extra-dimensional relationship with time may make him immune to the machine's rewrite of past histories. . . a conundrum ). So it could then be said that it was in fact Peter's choice in the machine that resulted in his erasure and it was September's retroactive retraction of past actions (saving the boy) that was more an effort to "clean up" inconsistencies in a timeline where Peter no longer exists. Again, I do not endorse this theory, but if you were to take Joshua Jackson's appraisal of the nature of Peter's erasure as accurate, this is how I would explain it because it is consistent with important facts and revelations regarding the Observers, and their agenda as it relates to Peter as well as their apparent actions in the past to make sure no trace of Peter exists.

It's cause and effect; you can't have a present without the past that led up to it. By taking away adult Peter's past, there is no adult Peter. And since September was the cause of this past alteration, then the Observers must necessarily have been the agents of Peter's erasure. September carried it out, but it was a deliberate act (judging by March's words), and December's words have all pointed to how they want a Peter-less world to persist (hence why Peter's remaining traces were viewed as problematic). And of course, invalidating Peter's past means that all events Peter had ever influenced and been a part of were also invalid, which initiated the rewrite that formed the S4 timeline.

Basically what I've written above there is intended to somehow draw consistency between Joshua Jackson's view of Peter's erasure and the actions of the Observers to "complete the erasure" as it were. However, this would be the muddy water of convoluted time travel I'm wading into here. And the theory that the Observers' erased Peter has more evidence actually obtained from the story available to support it.

Come on...Do you really believe that the machine created the bridge without Peter? It's what the characters think. Peter thinks he can't operate the machine in this timeline and that he needs an interface to operate this new version of the machine, but he may be wrong. What if in every timeline/universe Peter is always the only one who can use and power the machine even in different ways? How can an "intrument" like that work in an independent way without an operator and most importantly someone who can power it? If it can help you, the producers said that there will be at least 2 interesting twists about the machine.

Peter alluded earlier in Season Four that he had extensively and exhaustively researched the machine in this timeline and that the bio-mechanical bond he shared with the machine in the previous timeline no longer existed. I don't think this was blind supposition on Peter's part, the the ultimate conclusion reached from extensively researching the machine. I don't think Peter would waste all of this time and trouble trying to convince Walter to help him get the machine working so he can "go home" if it were really as simple as him just climbing back in the thing and turning it on.

If history was rewritten up to that point in 2011, then all Peter-dependent events would have been reconfigured in a way that they were not Peter-dependent.

The Bridge was another such Peter-centric event. Of course, one wonders how the Bridge could possibly have arisen without Peter, but the properties of rewriting secured it's existence, making the Bridge's creation inevitable; the rewrite works, after all, by changing things so as to explain the present at the time of the rewrite (or the past leading up to the present). So If the machine had no operator, then when Walternate activated it in the S4 timeline, its output was not being consciously controlled, and most likely worked in the chaotic way it did when Walternate used Henry's DNA to activate in the old timeline. But because the rewrite was in effect, the machine inevitably formed the Bridge.

This is consistent with both a lack of Peter and how the characters apparently saw the Bridge form spontaneously. The machine is capable of anything, so that it formed the Bridge without Peter being physically inside furthers the notion that the machine's inherent power source is what allows it to do what it does; what Peter only ever did was mould this power to his desires. So while Peter did not create the Bridge in the S4 timeline, he assured its creation after his erasure; if he was erased before he created the Bridge, then the past would have rewritten itself to explain/support a Bridge-less past. But September altered his past after the Bridge was created, so the Bridge's creation in a Peter-less history was guaranteed.

As a side point, could link(s) to the article/source about the "two machine twists" be provided? I don't think I've read it yet, and I am intrigued.

[PB]

On the topic of future episode titles, and in line with that post you made in the "potential 4.19 ideas" thread, I now dread that the series finale will be titled I Love You.

[Omniscient_Jay]

One of the things that peeked my interest in Joshua Jackson's perspective on Peter's erasure is how close he is to the story. Not only is a he a member of the cast but an actual writer of Fringe canon now that he's lending his creative abilities to the "Beyond the Fringe" comics. When Peter first disappeared from the timeline at the end of Season Three I immediately began fabricating a multitude of time travel related explanations for how Peter's changing the present, and thus the future, might result in his complete disappearance from the past (and thusly present and future). All of these theories were met skepticism and good counter arguments and I have since acquiesced in favor of the Observers removing Peter from time theory because it's less convoluted and as O.J. suggests has evidence to support it.

One theory if you wanted to go down that road is that Peter's birth in the Season 1-3 timeline was the result of actions taken by Walter in one iteration of the cyclical 2016 future. In other words, actions taken in the future using a wormhole to cause changes in the past that result in Peter's birth in the 1970's. Again, I have since relinquished this theory in favor of the Observers actions resulting in Peter's erasure. But I've read speculation elsewhere that Peter's actions in the machine may have caused his erasure and the Observers' (specifically September's) retroactive correction of mistakes in the past were actually just an example of them "cleaning up" the timeline (Because in a world where Peter no longer exists neither can his birth or September's actions in the past when he saves Peter from the lake. . . but Peter being erased doesn't change September's actions of saving a boy from the lake because September's extra-dimensional relations ship with time may make him immune to the machine's rewrite of past histories. . . a conundrum ). So it could then be said that it was in fact Peter's choice in the machine that resulted in his erasure and it was September's retroactive retraction of past actions (saving the boy) that was more an effort to "clean up" inconsistencies in a timeline where Peter no longer exists. Again, I do not endorse this theory, but if you were to take Joshua Jackson's appraisal of the nature of Peter's erasure as accurate, this is how I would explain it because it is consistent with important facts and revelations regarding the Observers, and their agenda as it relates to Peter as well as their apparent actions in the past to make sure no trace of Peter exists.

I'm not sure this completely makes sense, though. If Peter erases himself by somehow tampering in his own past, then any event he had a part in would be null and void; but this interpretation you offer suggest that there was a period, however brief, where history was basically riddled with Peter-less holes. Wouldn't this be a huge problem, in the sense that it would threaten the integrity of space-time? I suppose that September could have swept in and "cleaned up" things before any damage could have been wrought; but if he did, it would have to have been at the exact same time Peter erased himself, because the rewritten timeline kicked into effect the very moment Peter vanished.

Again, I suppose September could have been waiting at Reiden Lake the very moment Peter disappeared (which he was, actually), but taking into account everything else, then Peter's erasure being Observer-dependent is more plausible; because if Peter did erase himself, March would not have said his words in 4.11, meaning that September wouldn't have gone to 1985 to "not save" Peter. I would otherwise think that if Peter tampered with his past, the changes to the timeline (i.e. rewrite) would be instantaneous (incidentally, the erasure-rewrite transition was instantaneous).

Unless you meant Peter simply erased himself from that point in 2011 onward, but that wouldn't explain a rewritten history.

As it stands, there are two major links between Peter's use of the machine and September's (in)action in 1985:

-The Observers had to wait until the Bridge's formation before initiating the rewrite, as the Bridge would not otherwise have been included in the rewrite had they acted before;
-The machine may have set up the circumstances that allowed September to actually take back or alter a choice he had already made (see my explanations on the Window of Instability in my There Are Things That I Know thread).

Other than these two elements, there is no tangible connection between Peter's use of the Vacuum machine and the historical rewrite characterizing the S3-S4 transition.

Peter alluded earlier in Season Four that he had extensively and exhaustively researched the machine in this timeline and that the bio-mechanical bond he shared with the machine in the previous timeline no longer existed. I don't think this was blind supposition on Peter's part, the the ultimate conclusion reached from extensively researching the machine. I don't think Peter would waste all of this time and trouble trying to convince Walter to help him get the machine working so he can "go home" if it were really as simple as him just climbing back in the thing and turning it on.

Indeed; and as I have forwarded, that the machine created the Bridge without Peter - and even exists, for that matter - means that Peter was made*** for the machine, and not the other way around (as the machine retained all of its properties in the rewritten timeline save the bio-mechanical connection to Peter's DNA).

***And by made, I don't mean in the sense of biological engineering/creation, but that the Peter-specific connection to the machine is an addition that was made to the machine by someone at some point.

[PB]

I'm not sure this completely makes sense, though. If Peter erases himself by somehow tampering in his own past, then any event he had a part in would be null and void; but this interpretation you offer suggest that there was a period, however brief, where history was basically riddled with Peter-less holes. Wouldn't this be a huge problem, in the sense that it would threaten the integrity of space-time? I suppose that September could have swept in and "cleaned up" things before any damage could have been wrought; but if he did, it would have to have been at the exact same time Peter erased himself, because the rewritten timeline kicked into effect the very moment Peter vanished.

Again, I suppose September could have been waiting at Reiden Lake the very moment Peter disappeared (which he was, actually), but taking into account everything else, then Peter's erasure being Observer-dependent is more plausible; because if Peter did erase himself, March would not have said his words in 4.11, meaning that September wouldn't have gone to 1985 to "not save" Peter. I would otherwise think that if Peter tampered with his past, the changes to the timeline (i.e. rewrite) would be instantaneous (incidentally, the erasure-rewrite transition was instantaneous).

Unless you meant Peter simply erased himself from that point in 2011 onward, but that wouldn't explain a rewritten history.

As it stands, there are two major links between Peter's use of the machine and September's (in)action in 1985:

-The Observers had to wait until the Bridge's formation before initiating the rewrite, as the Bridge would not otherwise have been included in the rewrite had they acted before;
-The machine may have set up the circumstances that allowed September to actually take back or alter a choice he had already made (see my explanations on the Window of Instability in my There Are Things That I Know thread).

Other than these two elements, there is no tangible connection between Peter's use of the Vacuum machine and the historical rewrite characterizing the S3-S4 transition.

Supposition like Joshua Jackson's and my own in this case is fraught with problems and the likely reason I eventually ended up abandoning this idea completely. Though hearing a member of the cast had drawn a similar conclusion and still maintains it definitely got my attention, especially since it's basically Peter Bishop himself. Having said that, you provide a great deal of substantive debunking not the least of which is Peter's erasure "lag" as it were from the time he steps out of the machine. Had he erased himself, he would have disappeared from the machine at the same moment the bridge was created, that he had time to step out, address Olivia, and THEN disappear suggests that the Observers, who stood outside on Liberty Island are more likely culprits in Peter's erasure.

Indeed; and as I have forwarded, that the machine created the Bridge without Peter - and even exists, for that matter - means that Peter was made*** for the machine, and not the other way around (as the machine retained all of its properties in the rewritten timeline save the bio-mechanical connection to Peter's DNA).

***And by made, I don't mean in the sense of biological engineering/creation, but that the Peter-specific connection to the machine is an addition that was made to the machine by someone at some point.

Quick question, who do you suppose created the interface in the first place. I presume Walter, but when? What timeline?

-The machine may have set up the circumstances that allowed September to actually take back or alter a choice he had already made (see my explanations on the Window of Instability in my There Are Things That I Know thread).

Which I still need to examine in its full detail. I read the primer on your interpretation of the different time lines that do or have existed and the nomenclature used to describe them (OT, FPC, RT) as well as gleaned over subsequent ensuing debates (got pretty thick before I could really get any foot hold in the conversation) and your suggestion that the machine and the bridge may have provided (was it a "window of instability") an opportunity that allowed September to correct his previous "mistakes" is an aspect I really want to better understand. However to really understand your codification (as it were) of the different time lines as well as your breakdown of the pertinent events unfolding therein I really need to get myself back into that thread and have myself a good read.

Now would probably be a good time. I took my last exam for the term at 7:30 am this morning (after walking to the bus stop in the snow) and now is technically the beginning of my spring break, and it looks like a Norman Rockwell painting of a good ol' fashioned American White Christmas outside, I mean it is DUMPING out there. Rain all winter long, first day of spring break, like three or four inches of snow and it's still coming down. If there is a god, it is a god with a refined sense of irony, and humor. Anyway, point being, time is on my side, I will be checking into your There Are Things That I Know thread straight away.

The Original Timeline (OT) is what has always unfolded; or more precisely, is the one that precedes the FPC. It is the iteration of history wherein, as September implies, Red Peter and Blue Olivia spawn a Purple Bebbeh, which is apparently but one link in the chain that eventually leads to the creation of the Observers in the future.

This is my favorite exert from that thread to date.

[hantowertg]

Posted this in wrong thead xD

[jade86]

I know peter often said that it was walter who created the machine but the point is there haven't been clues about that, and the fact that walter in 4.10 said they needed a biomechanical interface doesn't mean anything. Even future walter said he only sent the machine back in time but this doesn't mean that the machine was created by walter. Maybe it was a walter from another timeline but what if was Peter from a totally different timeline who had the idea to create the machine and make sure he was the only one able to use it? It's possible that unconsciously peter knows but he is not ready to admit that, because of what he also tried to do in season 3: escape from his destiny/truth. But as he had to face his destiny in season 3, he will have to face another kind of truth about him. I sometimes have the feeling that you really understimate what peter would be capable of. I know that the "walter option" is more logical right now, but it's fringe and you should know that the writers often like adressing us on the wrong track before killing us (in a good way of course) with amazing twists.
Like Walernate said "not everything is as it seems".

About the wondercon panel, i watched a small part in hight quality where you can see Joel Wyman in agreement with Josh's theory about Peter being the one who erased himself. So, let's consider this possibility

[dolemite]

he did erase himself...although not intentionally

remember talk of "reprocussions" and an unseen conversation between peter and walter

the observers were just witnessing the event

they were shocked to find out that somehow peter was bleeding through and eventually resurfaced in physical form... in septembers words a very strong "it is impossssible"

then march gives september a metal rod (which looks similar to the key that unlocked the crowbar), which when combined with a spst switch, a vacuum tube, and some other shht somehow acts as a people eraser

[Omniscient_Jay]

Supposition like Joshua Jackson's and my own in this case is fraught with problems and the likely reason I eventually ended up abandoning this idea completely. Though hearing a member of the cast had drawn a similar conclusion and still maintains it definitely got my attention, especially since it's basically Peter Bishop himself. Having said that, you provide a great deal of substantive debunking not the least of which is Peter's erasure "lag" as it were from the time he steps out of the machine. Had he erased himself, he would have disappeared from the machine at the same moment the bridge was created, that he had time to step out, address Olivia, and THEN disappear suggests that the Observers, who stood outside on Liberty Island are more likely culprits in Peter's erasure.

Another good point. I suppose this could also be because the rewrite is a past-present progressing event, so there was a delay where the past caught up to the present, but the Observers provide a more encompassing solution.

Quick question, who do you suppose created the interface in the first place. I presume Walter, but when? What timeline?

I presume that the machine itself originates from the pre-loop timeline. In this history, either Walter or Peter could have been responsible. In the loop, however, I would lean more to Walter than Peter, since he's the one who was all about using the machine to "cheat the rules of time".

Which I still need to examine in its full detail. I read the primer on your interpretation of the different time lines that do or have existed and the nomenclature used to describe them (OT, FPC, RT) as well as gleaned over subsequent ensuing debates (got pretty thick before I could really get any foot hold in the conversation) and your suggestion that the machine and the bridge may have provided (was it a "window of instability") an opportunity that allowed September to correct his previous "mistakes" is an aspect I really want to better understand. However to really understand your codification (as it were) of the different time lines as well as your breakdown of the pertinent events unfolding therein I really need to get myself back into that thread and have myself a good read.

Now would probably be a good time. I took my last exam for the term at 7:30 am this morning (after walking to the bus stop in the snow) and now is technically the beginning of my spring break, and it looks like a Norman Rockwell painting of a good ol' fashioned American White Christmas outside, I mean it is DUMPING out there. Rain all winter long, first day of spring break, like three or four inches of snow and it's still coming down. If there is a god, it is a god with a refined sense of irony, and humor. Anyway, point being, time is on my side, I will be checking into your There Are Things That I Know thread straight away.

Just to give a quick primer on the WOI concept:

Everything in the loop happens at once, and every event is dependent on the previous one. When Peter creates the Bridge, he averts the 2026 future; however, the machine was sent from that time. So how did the machine come to be? Where did it come from? There exists a sort of paradox, where the machine's "origin point" was wiped, yet continues to exist in the present; this brief period where past, present, and future were unstable is what I call the Window of Instability. I have posited that this period was what allowed September to go back and alter his choice, because the Observers appear unable to do so in ordinary circumstances (see 4.14's explanations about further attempts at course-correction as opposed to just going back and changing things). I suspect that this is because the Observers, while impartial to the timeline they find themselves in, cannot violate their own personal past (much like Doctor Who can't interfere with his own time-stream for risk of threat to space-time stability).

Looking forward to see what you whip up in TATTIK thread.

This is my favorite exert from that thread to date.

All hail the Purple Bebbeh!

I know peter often said that it was walter who created the machine but the point is there haven't been clues about that, and the fact that walter in 4.10 said they needed a biomechanical interface doesn't mean anything. Even future walter said he only sent the machine back in time but this doesn't mean that the machine was created by walter. Maybe it was a walter from another timeline but what if was Peter from a totally different timeline who had the idea to create the machine and make sure he was the only one able to use it? It's possible that unconsciously peter knows but he is not ready to admit that, because of what he also tried to do in season 3: escape from his destiny/truth. But as he had to face his destiny in season 3, he will have to face another kind of truth about him. I sometimes have the feeling that you really understimate what peter would be capable of. I know that the "walter option" is more logical right now, but it's fringe and you should know that the writers often like adressing us on the wrong track before killing us (in a good way of course) with amazing twists.
Like Walernate said "not everything is as it seems".

About the wondercon panel, i watched a small part in hight quality where you can see Joel Wyman in agreement with Josh's theory about Peter being the one who erased himself. So, let's consider this possibility

I'm not sure if Walter physically built the machine, but I would wager that it was he who made the machine Peter-specific.

The machine most likely has a pre-loop origin, however, so I agree that it comes from a different timeline (the history that existed prior to September's interference). Perhaps Peter was the one who built it in this original timeline as well.

Though it should be noted that I am less concerned by "what ifs" and more about taking what's been shown and assembling it into (hopefully) a coherent framework. If Peter is the architect of the machine, then one would think there would have more in the show to support the possibility up to now; though I suppose we can always get more in future episodes.

For now, though, I am of the stance that the machine was created by someone at some point.