Reply With Quoteaccidental double post
Yeah in the final run of the first season I had thought they would follow the Jones and universe war more like we're seeing it now. After some squabbling between the red and blue universes they unite against the common enemy: Jones.Originally Posted by jfma
Also, I don't believe Jones' goal was to kill Bell. Let me explain why... First off, who told us that Jones wished to kill Bell? Nina. We know Nina was fairly enigmatic, to put it in a positive light, in the original timeline. However, that doesn't answer the question as to why Nina would want Olivia to believe that. My hypothesis is that Nina told Olivia this in order to get her to be more motivated to oppose Jones.
Then there's the fact that it doesn't fully fit with Jones' character. The way I see it, Jones' main motivation is to show Bell that he is capable by following through with his plan. Presumably, this plan is to "save" the universe(s). The scene in I believe it was 4x09 Enemy of My Enemy shows him killing one of the shapeshifters. You could see remorse in him, so it doesn't seem like he's doing what he is doing just to be sadistic/evil. Anyway, if Bell is dead then how can Jones show Bell that he is worthy of Bell's praise?
The third detail I'd like to bring up is that September said that Jones' goals in this timeline are the same as the previous one. If Bell is dead in this timeline, and to kill Bell is his goal, then why is Jones still an active player?
Last edited by hantowertg; 03-29-2012 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Added a third remark
accidental double post
Last edited by hantowertg; 03-29-2012 at 11:51 AM. Reason: accidental double post
"Go and watch CSI" is a very weak argument. It's like "Go and watch Twilight".
I think nobody minds "love" in general, but putting a "love story" with 30+ year olds acting like immature teenagers in the middle of a sci-fi/mystery show is just inadequate.
Just look at Season 2. As metioned, Walters' fateful love for Peter was wonderfully intergrated in the story line and was emotionally moving.
But that Peter/Olivia love story has just become annoying. There is a reason why Fringe lost and lost and lost and loses viewers. And it's not just its "complexity".
Too true.
It seems that the writers are committed to this idea, however, so hopefully the rest of the show's elements will be able to keep things in check.
"God is love" is an ancient Christian idea that has been used in countless works of literature in Western culture. "God" is synonmous with "meaning of the universe", thus one need not be a theist in order to contemplate this point.this makes me one sad panda. I'm as averse to Love as a cosmic force as I am the notion of Destiny, and to have them intertwined is even less palatable. Destiny is never cool, and to portray Love as a tangible force that supersedes space-time is problematic, since it can easily be abused as an explanation for anything.
I will continue to watch with some amount of trepidation in this regard.
Finally, love is more than an emotion. It's a decision to will the good of another. Peter still loved Olivia even if he chose to go to New York because it's what was best for her.
I suppose it's a matter of taste... But, Destiny... You've never felt like there was something that you were born to do? You never had the presentiment, the expectation that there were certain things meant to happen, that there has to be some meaning to everything that happens?
I've posted a few times on the various possible implicit and explicit religious symbolism and themes on the show. I happen to think, when it's done well (read: not Amy Jessup), it adds a deeper, mysterious dimension to the show, beyond the Observers and GGGR.
I'm unsure as to how exactly this relates to this topic specifically. Perhaps you could elaborate?
Indeed, in addition to being an emotion, love is a motivating force that can and does compel people to make decision and take actions, as it compels them to prioritize certain bonds/relationships. Peter's love for Olivia influenced his decision to exile himself, because he prioritized her safety/wellbeing.
It is the elevation of a human emotion as capable of surpassing the properties/laws that govern an impersonal universe which is of concern to me. I am reminded of Walternate's words in episode 4.05:
"Nature doesn't recognize Good and Evil, Philip. Nature only recognizes balance and imbalance."
Why should Nature recognize human emotions, especially Love? I know it's been established in the show that love can have a physical effect on reality (a tradition started in 3.14), but I had a problem with it when it was introduced back then, and the idea is no less iffy to me now.
Not really. My destiny is the one I shape through action, and any meaning or significance in events or occurrences in my life and in nature are the ones I ascribe to them. I guess this means I subscribe to an Existentialist philosophy, which basically boils down to the notion that life (or the lived experience) in and of itself has no objective meaning, but its subjective meaning is defined by each person, as per their opinions/values/ideas/beliefs/etc.
If there is Destiny or Fate at work, then I am not consciously aware of it, and since I can't say it has a conscious observable effect on my lived experience, it's not something I concern myself with, as it is not directly relevant. And while Destiny and Agency both lead us to the same conclusion in the end, I would rather have a say in what this conclusion will/might be.
But in terms of fictional narratives such as Fringe, Destiny and Fate invariably cause any sense of agency (free will/choice) to be diminished, if not entirely stripped. Ideally, people don't do things because they are destined to, they do things because they choose to.
Is this related to your above note about "God as Love"?
I'm still wondering what religion and/or spiritual beliefs have to do with the topic of love as a transcendent force, so I suppose I will wait for further elaboration on this point. But as for how faith/spiritual/religious topics have been handled in the show, then I agree that they have indeed been well handled.
Regardless of "The Power of Love" or its significance to the Fringe mythos, nothing can or will change the point made by CazzX, the P/O love story is trite, melodramatic, Dawson's Creek-esque drivel whereas the story of a Father's love for his son driving him to rip the fabric of the universe asunder to find that same boy in another universe and cure him is AMAZING and arresting in its poignancy.
The story has suffered since the story arc of season two. No one here is trying to make the argument that love is not a powerful theme or that love is insignificant to science or something silly like that. The point being made is that the Peter/Olivia love story suffers from extremely weak writing (unlike the love story of Season Two centering around a father's grief and desperation which was powerful and moving). Love is not the problem here, the writers are.
I despise horror shows/movies, so at first I didn't watch Fringe. But when they started getting into the observers as extradimensional beings, and a parallel universe, I was hooked. I just fast forward through the screaming and gore parts of the show. I'm a firm believer that extradimensional beings do exist. They exist like gravity, their effect on our reality can be felt, but we can't prove they exist.
I love the fact that they brought back Peter and are providing the opportunity for him and Olivia to get back together. Without a doubt, ending the show on season 3 would have been a huge disappointment. Personally I watch shows for the inevitable "happy ending", because life rarely has that. I don't need to watch 3 seasons of a show for it to end poorly and everything I care about is destroyed. I don't watch a show as a writer, critiquing how its written. I watch a show to be entertained.
I like how the love story is "consuming everything". It's true that the show's premise has been about investigating "fringe" science and similar phenomenon. But instead of exploring that concept fully, the show seemed to go to the darkest, most evil expression they could imagine, and stay there. What about things like aliens, ghosts, other dimensions? It was like every episode was built around the excuse to show blood and guts, screaming in agony, and other disturbing scenes for "shock" value alone. If it weren't so disturbing, I would find it laughable.
So for me, the relationship between Peter and Olivia has been a refreshing change. I also don't consider it a test of patience, waiting for them to get back together. It's nice to see them each explore their feelings, and show just how much they would sacrifice or do, for love.
Last edited by Orion; 03-30-2012 at 10:07 AM.
I think love does supersede space-time, it's called "Heaven". But I don't believe it's intertwined with destiny or fate. The matter, energy, space, time universe is hell. The only thing that endures is evil. Nothing good lasts. Heaven is a state of being, before the creation of the universes, perhaps our original "form" as "souls". To exist in Heaven, you become love itself. I'm speaking from experience, not speculation. It is glorious; effulgent. But trying to convey it is a lesson in futility. To quote from "Star Trek IV", "McCoy: You really have gone where no man's gone before. Can't you tell me what that felt like? Spock: It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference. McCoy: You mean I have to die to discuss your insights on death?"
As for Peter and Olivia acting like immature teenagers in love, that is what true love is. To quote from one of my favorite movies, "Meet Joe Black", "Love is passion, obsession, someone you can't live without. I say fall head over heels, find someone you can love like crazy and who'll love you the same way back. How do you find him? Well, you forget your head and you listen to your heart and I'm not hearing any heart. Because the truth is there is no sense living your life without this. To make the journey and not fall deeply in love - well, you haven't lived a life at all."
I agree that the Peter/Walter bond is qualitatively superior to the P/O one.
The series arguably revolves around the former bond as well, since it's basically the foundation for the inciting incident of the series, and without it, there would be no Fringe story. The P/O bond, however, is not as important (try though the writers may to make it that way), so ideally, it would be a secondary relationship, and not a primary one as it is becoming now.
Heaven (or anything post-life for that matter) has no direct impact on the lived experience (mine, anyway), so I don't concern myself with it. Upon death, whatever shall be, shall be, and all that jazz.
The idea you present is interesting, however. It reminds me of New Age/Quantum Mysticism, of which I have done a cursory exploration at one point. And while never having seen ST:IV, that quote is pretty sweet.
However, we're not really discussion the "real life" merits of love as an emotion VS a force, but how it applies to Fringe. I'm not too sure, then, that this can be used as an argument supporting the show's portrayal of the concept of love; I suppose the root idea could still be applied, although it would have to be stripped of the philosophical/spiritual elaborations, as it seems one step ahead/above of what the show is trying to do.
This concerns how P/O has been portrayed, yes? Then as PB conveniently noted above, it is not that they explore love that is necessarily at fault, but the often substandard writing of that exploration.
As for the worth/value/meaning of life, I am of the stance that this is determined by each individual for themselves. Love isn't the key to living life, because there is no key to begin with. If one chooses to value or prioritize love, then great; if not, then equally great. We will all go through the lived experience and undergo bodily death regardless (unless we figure out anti-aging/immortality at some point), so we might as well choose how we experience this experience. At least, so I figure.
Last edited by Omniscient_Jay; 03-30-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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