Jones as the big bad?

[PB]

I loved Jones as a mysterious intermediary with connections to the strange forces at work behind the scenes and his cryptic comments to Olivia about how "maybe someone is manipulating us right now". Comments like these suggest that there are much more influential forces at work and perhaps Jones is trying to combat them. I just hope it doesn't turn out that they have decided to shift the thrust of the story to portray Jones as some kind of megalomaniacal super villain bent on replacing humanity with some kind of superior race. I could see such an outcome being consistent with Fringe themes I guess but it would fail to offer an explanation regarding who's really pulling the strings.

I never saw Jones as a typical villain but more of an anti-hero combating unseen forces using whatever means necessary. On the other hand, at the end of season one they did decide to portray him as an unhinged scientist with a bone to pick with Bell, which certainly seems to be the case given the way he's been portrayed thus far in season four. I just hope there is more behind his master plan then just replacing humanity or something, that's too generic sci-fi for me personally.

I liked the good ol' days when there really was no clearly defined bad guy and Walter and Walternate were both tortured grieving fathers doing what they felt they had to do to protect their loved ones and their universe. Everything seemed to tie back to the Walters and Bell and a hell of their own making and now we have a super villain who has resurfaced, I just hope they don't cash The Jones Super Villain Ticket as a means to get away from all the mysterious mythos that were built up around Bell and ZFT in previous seasons.

Not a fan of super villains or megalomaniacs, I feel like that's too easy for Fringe.

[Omniscient_Jay]

I agree with this assessment, for the most part.

Ideally, Jones will turn out to be a man employing questionable means to a completely justified - and perhaps even objectively necessary - end. How does one stop a villain who's actually doing the right thing, or is doing something for the greater good? These villains are often the most intriguing ones to follow.

Though I agree that it's great when there is no clearly defined "bad guy"; it's only a bunch of people trying to do what they think is right and/or necessary, with these ideals often coming to a clash. I guess when we eventually hear Jones' side of the story, the field will be leveled to the nice shade of grey we so enjoy, and in turn place into new light Bell and ZFT, and what exactly they were trying to do.

This is in an ideal world, however; it can go in many different directions at this point, though I too dread the possibility of Jones being revealed as just another scientist with a God Complex.

[PB]

I agree with this assessment, for the most part.

Ideally, Jones will turn out to be a man employing questionable means to a completely justified - and perhaps even objectively necessary - end. How does one stop a villain who's actually doing the right thing, or is doing something for the greater good? These villains are often the most intriguing ones to follow.

Though I agree that it's great when there is no clearly defined "bad guy"; it's only a bunch of people trying to do what they think is right and/or necessary, with these ideals often coming to a clash. I guess when we eventually hear Jones' side of the story, the field will be leveled to the nice shade of grey we so enjoy, and in turn place into new light Bell and ZFT, and what exactly they were trying to do.

This is in an ideal world, however; it can go in many different directions at this point, though I too dread the possibility of Jones being revealed as just another scientist with a God Complex.

Thanks Omniscient Jay! It's funny, I read your response to my post on your apotheosis thread just a bit ago, and ironically, you ended up addressing almost precisely what I was trying to get across in this post! Cool!

I feel sometimes that I may be holding Fringe to too high a standard considering how amazingly mind bending it has been in the past. I can understand and appreciate the difficult spots the writers often find themselves in. It's easy to complain about a lack of consistency in this show and perhaps that has been the cause of low ratings but it can also be seen as the result of low ratings. For instance at the end of season three I still feel erasing Peter was a Hail Mary Pass to shock longtime fans, as well as provide a conclusion to the season that could serve as a form of ending for the series (sorry folks, canceled, show's over, Peter sacrificed himself to save humanity, thanks for watching!), were ratings not a factor they likely would not have placed themselves in such a precarious situation. And of course leading into season four being so lucky to even HAVE a season four I think all bets were off in terms of consistency and the like it being difficult enough just to figure out how they were going to follow up Peter's erasure. Then you are confronted with trying to bridge the gap between an entirely new timeline and mythos from previous seasons.

Adding to these complications you have key cast departures. If the writers had their way Bell would still be a major player behind the scenes and Jones was likely brought back to occupy this glaring void, again having to change the thrust of the story to cope with unfortunate circumstances. All in all the writers make a solid effort. I don't think there will ever be an adequate explanation for baby-gate though.

[Omniscient_Jay]

Thanks Omniscient Jay! It's funny, I read your response to my post on your apotheosis thread just a bit ago, and ironically, you ended up addressing almost precisely what I was trying to get across in this post! Cool!

I feel sometimes that I may be holding Fringe to too high a standard considering how amazingly mind bending it has been in the past. I can understand and appreciate the difficult spots the writers often find themselves in. It's easy to complain about a lack of consistency in this show and perhaps that has been the cause of low ratings but it can also be seen as the result of low ratings. For instance at the end of season three I still feel erasing Peter was a Hail Mary Pass to shock longtime fans, as well as provide a conclusion to the season that could serve as a form of ending for the series (sorry folks, canceled, show's over, Peter sacrificed himself to save humanity, thanks for watching!), were ratings not a factor they likely would not have placed themselves in such a precarious situation. And of course leading into season four being so lucky to even HAVE a season four I think all bets were off in terms of consistency and the like it being difficult enough just to figure out how they were going to follow up Peter's erasure. Then you are confronted with trying to bridge the gap between an entirely new timeline and mythos from previous seasons.

Adding to these complications you have key cast departures. If the writers had their way Bell would still be a major player behind the scenes and Jones was likely brought back to occupy this glaring void, again having to change the thrust of the story to cope with unfortunate circumstances. All in all the writers make a solid effort. I don't think there will ever be an adequate explanation for baby-gate though.

Concerning Season 3, the story would have otherwise been come full circle had they kept a non-rewrite continuity. The worlds have been healed via the Bridge; Walter and Peter, forming two halves the central Fringe relationship, have bridged the gap between them; Peter has found his place in the universe, where he for so long drifted without aim; Olivia surmounted her fear to become a fully realized woman; Walter has found the courage to forgive himself and move forward; the Fringe family was as solid as ever; inter-world peace never seemed any closer; etc.

Of course, there was still a lot of mysteries left by the end of S3, but with such a precarious ratings situation, resolving the characters an their relationships seemed to be the priority (this was LOST's excuse, but they knew their show would end years in advance, and thus had a proper ending assured, so that's different); I think were Fringe to have been cancelled at the end of S3, such a thing could have been forgivable (and the writers apparently had many endings in the air for S3, so they could have easily put in a more conclusive ending other than Peter's erasure).

Though even if they did keep non-written continuity, it couldn't have been a sustainable paradigm. By averting 2026, Peter causes a huge paradox with the machine, as it was sent from that future. Because I don't think such a paradox could have been resolved any other way than in the rewrite, I am actually glad S4 went down a rewritten road. Since I had long suspected it was "the same timeline, merely altered", I thoroughly enjoyed how any answers doled therein gave indirect insight to past seasons (particularly with Jones), and the actual callbacks and references have made me one happy camper. Continuity-wise, there are many questions, but I can easily see the writers kill many birds with few stones, and with any luck, even if Fringe is cancelled this season, we'll get enough to be able to piece most things on our own.

Key cast departures are indeed unfortunate; Kirk Acevedo's absence this season is strongly felt (he was committed to the now-defunct Prime Suspects). Imagine if Blue Charlie was still alive in S4 (and if we actually saw Scarlie ever now and then). That would have added to the story. But that's the reality of network television, I suppose.

At this point, it's best to shed all expectations, to neither hope nor dread; it's all outside our control anyhow, so it's best to sit back and watch every week than to wrack oneself over ratings and whether every mystery will be resolved or if the ending will be satisfying or not.

What shall be, shall be.

[Drawde5711]

Bell could still be a major player if only the transfer of his soul to another body had been successful. Who knows, it still could be the case that Bell's consciousness will somehow gather itself into another mind. It wouldn't be Nimoy, but it could be Bell, it would have been the essential Bell.

[fragaria x phile]

Thanks Omniscient Jay! It's funny, I read your response to my post on your apotheosis thread just a bit ago, and ironically, you ended up addressing almost precisely what I was trying to get across in this post! Cool!

I feel sometimes that I may be holding Fringe to too high a standard considering how amazingly mind bending it has been in the past. I can understand and appreciate the difficult spots the writers often find themselves in. It's easy to complain about a lack of consistency in this show and perhaps that has been the cause of low ratings but it can also be seen as the result of low ratings. For instance at the end of season three I still feel erasing Peter was a Hail Mary Pass to shock longtime fans, as well as provide a conclusion to the season that could serve as a form of ending for the series (sorry folks, canceled, show's over, Peter sacrificed himself to save humanity, thanks for watching!), were ratings not a factor they likely would not have placed themselves in such a precarious situation. And of course leading into season four being so lucky to even HAVE a season four I think all bets were off in terms of consistency and the like it being difficult enough just to figure out how they were going to follow up Peter's erasure. Then you are confronted with trying to bridge the gap between an entirely new timeline and mythos from previous seasons.

Adding to these complications you have key cast departures. If the writers had their way Bell would still be a major player behind the scenes and Jones was likely brought back to occupy this glaring void, again having to change the thrust of the story to cope with unfortunate circumstances. All in all the writers make a solid effort. I don't think there will ever be an adequate explanation for baby-gate though.

I concur. The writers and showrunners are really pushing me to my limit in trusting them this season, and I really think they've written themselves into a corner on some of the arcs. But I also recognize that had the show had more consistent ratings, they could creatively be the show they wanted to be. And the pacing would be better, for sure. My biggest gripe lately is that so much of the story seems hinged on whether or not Olivia and Peter are together. And that relationship was severely underwritten in contrast to the others. Had the ratings not been plummeting once casual viewers realized this wasn't just another procedural...perhaps everything regarding them wouldn't be so forced.

Yes....as much as I love Nimoy as Bell, it's so frustrating that such a key player has retired. Then again, there's no reason why we can't hear more about him in artfully written ways.

[Omniscient_Jay]

I concur. The writers and showrunners are really pushing me to my limit in trusting them this season, and I really think they've written themselves into a corner on some of the arcs. But I also recognize that had the show had more consistent ratings, they could creatively be the show they wanted to be. And the pacing would be better, for sure. My biggest gripe lately is that so much of the story seems hinged on whether or not Olivia and Peter are together. And that relationship was severely underwritten in contrast to the others. Had the ratings not been plummeting once casual viewers realized this wasn't just another procedural...perhaps everything regarding them wouldn't be so forced.

Yes....as much as I love Nimoy as Bell, it's so frustrating that such a key player has retired. Then again, there's no reason why we can't hear more about him in artfully written ways.

This probably applies only to me, but I don't trust the writers. Yet at the same time, neither do I not mistrust them. Trust was never the question.

Things happen on my television screen on Friday nights, and I watch because I'm attracted to cool ideas not unlike the way Markham is attracted to Olivia Dunham. I guess you guys (i.e. those who have expressed discontentment with some or all aspects of S4 and the prospect of satisfactory resolution) are more like Blue Lincoln, spurned that you can't have the ideal romance (or have the idealized show) you crave or desire, whereas I, like Markham, am just happy to see the show's face.

It should be noted that this is not me harping about a superior position or anything of the sort; should the Lincoln/Markham analogy prove inaccurate or ineffective, by all means correct it.

[PB]

Marklee: They should get together, let's just face facts that Markham, despite being a total pimp has no shot with Olivia, Peter's her 'boo. (see Oliva's boo reference here. Do not click on this link or read the contents therein lest you have an extremely masochistic sense of humor)

Lincoln needs a shoulder to cry on, Markham is available, Lincoln isn't having luck with women (in either universe) time to broaden the field.

I reiterate: Marklee

'shipping is fun!!! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[jade86]

I loved Jones as a mysterious intermediary with connections to the strange forces at work behind the scenes and his cryptic comments to Olivia about how "maybe someone is manipulating us right now". Comments like these suggest that there are much more influential forces at work and perhaps Jones is trying to combat them. I just hope it doesn't turn out that they have decided to shift the thrust of the story to portray Jones as some kind of megalomaniacal super villain bent on replacing humanity with some kind of superior race. I could see such an outcome being consistent with Fringe themes I guess but it would fail to offer an explanation regarding who's really pulling the strings.

I never saw Jones as a typical villain but more of an anti-hero combating unseen forces using whatever means necessary. On the other hand, at the end of season one they did decide to portray him as an unhinged scientist with a bone to pick with Bell, which certainly seems to be the case given the way he's been portrayed thus far in season four. I just hope there is more behind his master plan then just replacing humanity or something, that's too generic sci-fi for me personally.

I liked the good ol' days when there really was no clearly defined bad guy and Walter and Walternate were both tortured grieving fathers doing what they felt they had to do to protect their loved ones and their universe. Everything seemed to tie back to the Walters and Bell and a hell of their own making and now we have a super villain who has resurfaced, I just hope they don't cash The Jones Super Villain Ticket as a means to get away from all the mysterious mythos that were built up around Bell and ZFT in previous seasons.

Not a fan of super villains or megalomaniacs, I feel like that's too easy for Fringe.

I also think jones in not the real bad guy in fringe. When did he say "maybe someone is manipulating us right know" to Olivia? I can't remember.

[PB]

I also think jones in not the real bad guy in fringe. When did he say "maybe someone is manipulating us right know" to Olivia? I can't remember.

OLIVIA: If you’re not responsible for infecting Agent Loeb, who is?
DAVID ROBERT JONES: Perhaps the same people responsible for bringing us together. What if someone wanted information from the both of us? You see? Perhaps they’ve orchestrated all of this. What if you and I – both of us, at this very moment, were being manipulated.
OLIVIA: By whom? And what would they want?
DAVID ROBERT JONES: You’ve not been doing this very long, have you?

That's the dialogue from the episode "In Which We Meet Mr. Jones", verbatim. The bit of dialogue I contributed earlier was paraphrase.