Soooo. . . I like how cortexiphan is administered to adults like vitamins . . .

[phx219]

I also don't get, if the wormhole was the path to 250MBC, how the hell does Peter interact with all those other places? And if he's time traveling with the machine to those places, why the hell do they need the wormhole to 250MBC?

[Fringeaholic]

Do we even know how popular Batman was in the previous timeline? Maybe he was a third tier (and still is in the new timeline) character like Blue Beetle, someone that only comic book fans would know?

[phx219]

http://www.fringebloggers.com/fringe...-there-part-2/

We know for a fact that Batman was in Justice League relaunch #1, and that a giant Death of Batman arc occurred, matching the scope of Superman/Doomsday, in the redverse, in the early 90s.

[tricked]

I guess we disagree on something fundamental, then... I am convinced, that for things to end up so close to the same as it "should have", with the bridge, and all the major players in the room at the right time, with the bridge assembled in the same place... that history should have unfolded close to what was originally seen... all the machine stuff, and previous versions of Peter DID happen... they were just replaced from '85 onward. Any prehistoric alterations would remain constant... because that Peter DID exist... he DID make those actions... even if he doesn't exist anymore, because of outside interference, doesn't mean that he didn't exist previously... he was physically *there*... his actions physically *happened*... i would say that is the fundamental difference between "rewrite" concept and one in which you have to create a stable time loop to repeat past actions in a circle.

I don't know that I disagree with you 100% ... I just am more on an "unsure" level, and so I'm looking at the multiple choice options lol :-)

Of course, I also have a theory that the machine was sent back well before the loop or any wars started, from an initial unseen timeline already eliminated by the time september came to watch, ie, that when september came to watch, there were already machine parts buried everywhere (with no security protection/peter dna module, since there was no conflict yet), and that is what we are falling back to post rewrite, now that the loop has been eliminated.

I tend to sway in a direction similar to this one here ... but I include the Peter/Olivia/DNA/doorstop/etc as being included with the original "Machine bundle" strewn throughout time, because one of the theories I toss around has them being specific to the Machine, even pre-September mistake, because they are the "First People UnParadoxed" so to speak. But I don't know if I place all my chips in that basket, because while we never actually see Peter/Walter/etc CREATING the FP documents with the strange Observer-like script on them, we do see Peter placing the Olivia parchment in the box. So would Olivia have been needed in the original version preSeptmistake ? Or would any person with her ability been able to perform the task ? Would we still need Peter ? Idk. However I tend to think that, pre-September-mistake, those parchments with the script and depictions of Peter/Olivia were still there with the Machine ... they just got there differently. In a pre-September-mistake timeline, for example .... they create the Bridge, then take it down, and then in order to seal up a wormhole that gets created at a later date (possibly by someone like Jones, or perhaps the Observers for all we know as they are arriving en masse :-) ), they throw the Machine into it and voila .... you have the Machine being thrown throughout history, except this time in a different manner.

But at some point, I was still hoping we'd get to see the actual creation of those documents (rather than seeing them merely discovered and inherited), and the first instance the Machine is actually visualized, invented, designed, and built.

I also don't get, if the wormhole was the path to 250MBC, how the hell does Peter interact with all those other places? And if he's time traveling with the machine to those places, why the hell do they need the wormhole to 250MBC?

Well, I don't think it's that they needed a wormhole to go to that point in time. In The Day We Died, we learn from 2026 Peter that a wormhole opened up in Sheeps Meadow, in Central Park NYC .... and that it begins emitting Kappa radiation. It took them months to amber over it. Walter says that only a wormhole through time would emit Kappa radiation, and Peter confirms this: that carbon levels were consistent with the late Paleozoic era, 250 million years ago. Walter gets all excited about theropods. But it's this ambered over wormhole that gets opened up by the EndofDayer bad guys (Moreau), and in order to defeat it's cataclysmic destruction, Walter realizes how the Machine came from the past in the first place. He puts two and two together, seeing the open wormhole to the past ... and realizes that they threw the Machine into it.

Now, why the wormhole is specifically linked to those points in time .... I have no idea. I wish they had played with this more :-). Was it arbitrary and simply the result of more fundamental breakdown ? Or was it designed to be there, in that manner, by someone or something else ? And how Peter is able to bounce through time with it's various pieces .... idk lol. Magic ? He had the first season of Quantum Leap with him and Ziggy helped him ? Idk. That was a Deus Ex Machina aspect of a plot if I've ever seen one.

I might suspect, that the wormhole was actually opened by another Walter, elsewhere, with the help of September. The reason being, are Walter's words right here when he's contemplating throwing the Machine threw the wormhole in 2026 timeline that gets rewritten:

It does. It's a paradox. I can't change what happens because it's already happened. But you can make a different choice within what happened. I simply need to find a way to bring your consciousness forward to now so that you can witness what will happen if you make the same choice. Peter, for all I know, it could be happening already. Don't you see? We can fix everything. We can cheat the rules of time.

Walter says he needs to find a way to bring Peter's consciousness forward so that he can see what he does in the future, and not make that same choice again. This is exactly what we see happen: Peter sees his future choice, but changes it whilst in the Machine because his consciousness is brought forward. But did Walter figure out how to do that ? We are never shown directly where Walter figured out how to do that .... how to bring Peter's consciousness forward like that. All we see Walter doing is participating in the loop, guessing and hoping that things end up differently ... and when they finally do, Peter is actually erased via the Observers and a timeline rewritten. But what we DO see happen, is that whilst in the Machine, September talks to Peter. And Peter has the Machine in the first place .... when it's tossed into the wormhole he comes too again in the normal timeline, and before he dismounts from it, he creates the Bridge. But again, where did Walter do this directly, knowing that he discovered a way to bring Peter's consciousness forward in time successfully ? It happens that way, but where does Walter discover the means to exactly do it ? This points even more, I think, to Walter being involved in the origins of the Machine outside of his actions we've seen thus far, and perhaps even working with September in order to help bring Peter's consciousness forward. For all we know, it was September and Walter who create the wormhole in Central Park so that this very thing could take place. But again ... a lot of speculating here. However, it goes back to why we possibly see Walter and company in amber from 2015, to 2036 ..... that's when they create the wormhole somehow themselves, but instead of protecting the environment from it, they UNLEASH it, and instead they amber themselves as protection lol .....

Anyway ... Fringe is on tonight ! :-)

[PB]

But how could Walter and Elizabeth somehow indirectly influence DC comics? ahah. I just don't see it.

Seems how these "how could a small change yields such massive repercussions" conversations are motivated by the butterfly effect it only makes sense to ask the question "how could a butterfly indirectly influence. . . well . . . anything?". If a butterfly can indirectly set a chain of events in motion that have major repercussions certainly Walter and Elizabeth could.

The 1992 DCU event was the Death of Superman (where he fought Doomsday) and the cover was the Superman logo dripping blood over a plain background. The Death of Batman cover is a direct homage to this comic, right down to the writers credit and issue #. The event culminated in his return, of course, so I would have assumed that the alternate version would have followed suit. The other comics shown were Red Arrow/Red Lantern (instead of Green) and an '85 Crisis on Infinite Earth's cover, where instead of Superman holding a dead Supergirl, it is Supergirl holding a dead Superman. Logically, Batman would have returned after a Reign of the Batmen (to still follow the Superman model of our world.)

Sooooo. . . there was a 1992 Death of Batman issue, again, that was a different timeline. No one knows what might have happened in this rewritten timeline following the death of Peter Bishop. How Peter's death effected Walternate and Elizabeth remains a variable. How the altered timeline post 1985 effected the red universe is also a variable. The two universes are inextricably intertwined as most of the evidence has suggested. Maybe Batman never became important enough over there in this new timeline to have ever warranted him being featured in a 'Death Of' issue. Maybe it was "Death of Mantis".

Basically, they were f'ing with Lincoln, or Batman stayed dead, and I don't know of ANY comic book character that STAYS dead, right Barry?

Ben Reilly is still dead, I've been waiting like ten years for him to be resurrected, but no, they've passed the Scarlet Spider moniker on to Cain, Peter Parker's other clone (and not the cool one). And who the hell is Barry?

[phx219]

Barry Allen, the Silver Age Flash, the one character that was seemingly actually dead and spent a couple decades gone, before finally being resurrected a few years back. I absolutely despise that they did this, and its totally destroyed the Wally West Flash.

[PB]

Barry Allen, the Silver Age Flash, the one character that was seemingly actually dead and spent a couple decades gone, before finally being resurrected a few years back. I absolutely despise that they did this, and its totally destroyed the Wally West Flash.

I am in awe of your extensive DC Universe knowledge . I've always been a Marvel guy myself, but wish I had enough time for both universes back when I still read comics.

One way or the other, I share your frustration about the Death of Batman cover and its implications in this new timeline. Mantis is lame.

[phx219]

I'm a few years behind myself, but I've semi-kept up with internet summaries, i was big into comics back in the 90s. Some day I plan to catch up my "era" of DC comics, but with the big relaunch/reboot last year, everything was restarted at #1 and everything I know is pretty much gone (i hear the Batman lines are kind of ignoring it.) For me, comic books go from 1985 (the original Crisis reboot and the beginning of "my" DCU) to 2011. Sad....