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Thread: So why did the producers spoil the rest of the season in Ep 19?

  1. #41
    Liaison Fringie krick's Avatar

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    There was actually a study done last year that showed that people enjoy stories more when they know the ending ahead of time.

    Here's one source reporting on it, you can find others with Google...

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...poil-anything/
    Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know.

  2. #42
    Liaison Fringie krick's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post

    How does presenting random bs 3 eps before the finale that they had no intentions of ever addressing again work towards crafting a satisfying conclusion? If they don't address the stuff in 4.19 in season 5, that would be a monumental mistake and would make 4.19 seem even more random than it already is.
    I'm convinced that episode 4.19 was a setup for a possible movie if Fringe was cancelled at the end of season 4. Even with the abbreviated season 5, it could still be the launching point for a movie.
    Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know.

  3. #43
    He's Not Dead Black Peter's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by phx219 View Post
    They wrapped that all up. The machine was the end of the world because Peter chose "Destroy"... once he made the correct decision it became "Create" which made the bridge and started healing the worlds. Walternate no longer wants to use the Machine to destroy our side, and we no longer want to use the machine to destroy them. How much more wrapped up a story do you need??
    All of this took place offscreen in Peter's mind somehow, since we never saw a "create" or "destroy" button he could press unless I missed something. So basically what your saying is that whoever is inside the machine somehow mentally decides to do something regarding either the red world or the blue world and it just happens. SOMEHOW.

    When Peter thought "destroy", it somehow destroyed the red world, and the blue world survived up till 2026, when alledgedly the machine was created by the "first people" (even though they wouldn't exist if Peter changed the course of history, which we see that he did), which got sent back in time along with the manuscripts and somehow Sam Weiss and his ancestors ended up with them. Somehow it also ended up in both worlds, meaning ONE machine got built (there was no red world anymore) but somehow TWO existed in identical locations in both worlds.

    And then somehow the mind of 2026 Peter goes back in time in the machine to the present day where he mentally thinks "create" this time and somehow everything about the two worlds change (including the machine not recognizing Peter anymore even though it was alledgedly BUILT FOR HIM BY THE FIRST PEOPLE in 2026) and because Peter SIMPLY THOUGHT DIFFERENT THOUGHTS while in the machine, the physical and mental landscape of EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE SUDDENLY AND INSTANTANEOUSLY became different (dead people lived again, no baby, etc) all because Peter mentally thought "create" this time. But even though everything changed about the worlds, the people who were standing close by the machine somehow still ended up in exactly the same place, even though their lives were different.

    And then Peter disappeared. But then he reappeared because September didn't use his future thingamabobby that somehow would have erased him for good, except nobody remembers him except Olivia because she was given magic drugs as a child, or because she loves him the most, or some other unexplained reason. And then Peter and Walter built a biological interface that enabled Peter to SOMEHOW overheat the "indestructable" machine
    and close the bridge, which somehow kept the red world from decomposing. But even without the machine and the bridge, everyone in the red world will be fine now somehow.

    You're right. Everything is wrapped up in a neat little bow regarding the machine. How dare we want more information about all the SOMEHOWS that remain unaddressed about virtually everything associated with it?

  4. #44
    Enduring Memories Omniscient_Jay's Avatar

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    ^^^

    This may or may not be a satisfying answer, but the nature of Peter making a different "choice" (which as you note would be dubious seeing as he is in a Loop which reoccurs indefinitely) was covered in the canon Beyond the Fringe comics (issues 1A, 2A, and 3A). Don't know if you've read them or not, but it does put a few things into perspective. Of course, one wonders why these events were not put into the show for the sake of the audience; then again, the things therein might not have been the easiest thing to pull off, especially budget-wise (though perhaps the basic story could still have been modified for the screen. Eh, I ramble).

    A lot of your other questions are indeed pressing. Though I will say that I don't think the precise way September's Impromptu Eraser works is all that important, nor the reason or source of the Machine's power; after all, how do you explain infinite/limitless potential/power, unless you refer to some nebulous force or some made-up source (like Amphilicite, which is a fictional element that has no factual corollary)?

    The premise of S4 has been interesting, and there's been a lot to enjoy, but its biggest fault remains lack of contextualization for key elements.

  5. #45
    He's Not Dead Black Peter's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniscient_Jay View Post
    ^^^

    This may or may not be a satisfying answer, but the nature of Peter making a different "choice" (which as you note would be dubious seeing as he is in a Loop which reoccurs indefinitely) was covered in the canon Beyond the Fringe comics (issues 1A, 2A, and 3A). Don't know if you've read them or not, but it does put a few things into perspective. Of course, one wonders why these events were not put into the show for the sake of the audience; then again, the things therein might not have been the easiest thing to pull off, especially budget-wise (though perhaps the basic story could still have been modified for the screen. Eh, I ramble).

    A lot of your other questions are indeed pressing. Though I will say that I don't think the precise way September's Impromptu Eraser works is all that important, nor the reason or source of the Machine's power; after all, how do you explain infinite/limitless potential/power, unless you refer to some nebulous force or some made-up source (like Amphilicite, which is a fictional element that has no factual corollary)?

    The premise of S4 has been interesting, and there's been a lot to enjoy, but its biggest fault remains lack of contextualization for key elements.
    I did read the comics, and I found the content to be even more riddiculous than what we got in the show and not relavatory about the "inner workings" of the machine or "Peter's choices" in the least. I know they're considered semi-cannon, but they read more like bad fanfic to me. Not to mention that NOTHING in the comics was referenced onscreen this season at all.

    You would think that SOMETHING substantial about the machine or Peter's travels while in the machine would have made it into the show when Peter went into September's mind, but we got nothing. What we did get was a complete and total reset regarding the machine. For some reason, it's no longer dependent on Peter. There's no more "first people" or Sam Weiss that we know of relating back to it. Not only was the timeline reset, but apparently the machine's origins (if it even has any) were too, so basically everything we "learn" in the comics doesn't even apply anymore. Very disappointing.

    Edit: the other thing that pisses me off about the machine is that Peter disappeared when it was revealed that he couldn't have existed in this timeline. So why didn't the machine disappear with him, since he averted the future in which it's implied that the "first people" built it? If we're following logic here, if Peter didn't exist, neither did the future in which the machine was built, so it couldn't exist either.
    Last edited by Black Peter; 05-07-2012 at 11:50 PM.

  6. #46
    Enduring Memories Omniscient_Jay's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
    I did read the comics, and I found the content to be even more riddiculous than what we got in the show and not relavatory about the "inner workings" of the machine or "Peter's choices" in the least. I know they're considered semi-cannon, but they read more like bad fanfic to me. Not to mention that NOTHING in the comics was referenced onscreen this season at all.

    You would think that SOMETHING substantial about the machine or Peter's travels while in the machine would have made it into the show when Peter went into September's mind, but we got nothing. What we did get was a complete and total reset regarding the machine. For some reason, it's no longer dependent on Peter. There's no more "first people" or Sam Weiss that we know of relating back to it. Not only was the timeline reset, but apparently the machine's origins (if it even has any) were too, so basically everything we "learn" in the comics doesn't even apply anymore. Very disappointing.
    As it would seem, September brought 2026 Peter around time, told him what had to be done, and 2026 Peter convinced 2011 Peter to create the Bridge. It's an infinitely once paradigm; it's borderline timey-wimey, but it does work, insofar as the Create/Destroy choice is concerned.

    I too find the highlighted unfortunate. Although, because not everyone has read the comics, a lot of the audience would have probably been mightily confused at all these new references, to the point where it might have just been better to include this comic arc in the show anyway (perhaps in a flashback episode in the tradition of 2.15/3.15, except it would show how Peter ended up in the new timeline from his perspective (he still hasn't talked about what it was actually like in inter-history limbo, much to the show's detriment).

    I think the First People is mystery is pretty much closed, however, as that was a 2026-dependent thread (and the Weiss thread is no longer relevant either, though it still would have been cool to see Weiss anyway).

    The comics don't answer where the Machine comes from either, so perhaps the answer (if there is one) would unify many Machine-centric mysteries. We're probably not going to get anything more on that front, though, unless the Machine suddenly becomes relevant in 4.22 (which is doubtful).

  7. #47
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    I still think the simplest explanation is that the "original" timeline that September interfered with was *also* one in which the machine had an origin in which it was created in the previous timeline's future, but one with less conflict, so that when Peter is removed, it has the same general origin, but with no Peter-specific security protection.

    A really outside the box explanation is that *Bell* sent it back - AFTER he is derailed in S1, in order to orchestrate the rewrite and bring back all of his chess pieces - DRJ, the cortexiphan kids, etc. The rewrite would have been instantaneous and unknown to everyone, except they would start to stumble into the parts and First People lore, again at Bell's direction.

  8. #48
    He's Not Dead Black Peter's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniscient_Jay View Post
    As it would seem, September brought 2026 Peter around time, told him what had to be done, and 2026 Peter convinced 2011 Peter to create the Bridge. It's an infinitely once paradigm; it's borderline timey-wimey, but it does work, insofar as the Create/Destroy choice is concerned.

    I too find the highlighted unfortunate. Although, because not everyone has read the comics, a lot of the audience would have probably been mightily confused at all these new references, to the point where it might have just been better to include this comic arc in the show anyway (perhaps in a flashback episode in the tradition of 2.15/3.15, except it would show how Peter ended up in the new timeline from his perspective (he still hasn't talked about what it was actually like in inter-history limbo, much to the show's detriment).

    I think the First People is mystery is pretty much closed, however, as that was a 2026-dependent thread (and the Weiss thread is no longer relevant either, though it still would have been cool to see Weiss anyway).

    The comics don't answer where the Machine comes from either, so perhaps the answer (if there is one) would unify many Machine-centric mysteries. We're probably not going to get anything more on that front, though, unless the Machine suddenly becomes relevant in 4.22 (which is doubtful).
    I'm not going to use spoiler tags regarding the comic, because it's been out months now and I'm sure anyone who's interested would have read it by now.

    I found 2026 Peter talking to his 2011 version to be the most fan-fic-y part because I'm not sure how that's even possible logistically in the Fringeverse unless it's all happening in Peter's mind dream-style, detached from the "physical" reality, which doesn't seem like it was the intent of the author to imply this.

    We've never seen time travelers interact with other versions of themselves onscreen EVER in fringe. Not observers, not Alister Peck (or whatever the White Tulip guy's name is) or anyone else. The concept of travelers talking to their past/future selves isn't even broached in passing, so until I see addressed onscreen, I'm not going to consider it to be possible, because it really SHOULD have manifested itself in the show by now if it were.

    Also, I don't know if you saw the edit to my last post regarding the machine, but if not, here it is:


    Edit: the other thing that pisses me off about the machine is that Peter disappeared when it was revealed that he couldn't have existed in this timeline. So why didn't the machine disappear with him, since he averted the future in which it's implied that the "first people" built it? If we're following logic here, if Peter didn't exist, neither did the future in which the machine was built, so it couldn't exist either.

  9. #49
    Butterfly Attack!

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    The machine still had an origin from a previous timeline, somehow; we just don't know the details.

    The Observer's stopped September from saving Peter, so they initiated the rewrite.

    The machine is not dependant on Peter, and the rewrite is not dependant on the machine.

  10. #50
    Enduring Memories Omniscient_Jay's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by phx219 View Post
    I still think the simplest explanation is that the "original" timeline that September interfered with was *also* one in which the machine had an origin in which it was created in the previous timeline's future, but one with less conflict, so that when Peter is removed, it has the same general origin, but with no Peter-specific security protection.

    A really outside the box explanation is that *Bell* sent it back - AFTER he is derailed in S1, in order to orchestrate the rewrite and bring back all of his chess pieces - DRJ, the cortexiphan kids, etc. The rewrite would have been instantaneous and unknown to everyone, except they would start to stumble into the parts and First People lore, again at Bell's direction.
    I agree that these are the most logical explanations at this point, but it is only conjecture faced with show canon. The problem is more that the writers have neglected to make these things clear, when it's usually the author's unspoken duty to address and resolve the things they bring up.

    Unless their intent was always to leave the Machine an ambiguous plot element (in which case it would be nothing more than a plot device), and wanted us viewers to piece/interpret things for ourselves. I'm all for open mysteries, though they should (have) still come out and say as much if this were the case (and I imagine that many would have called them out for copping-out, and understandably (and justifiably) so)).

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