Why didn't Peter just slap the old lady, throw her over his shoulder, and run out?

[tricked]

But the question remains, why should the observers care about humans? Would it not be easier for them to solve this problem between the universes simply by eliminating all of the humans who are causing the problem? You and others in this thread have correctly pointed out that it would have been much easier to simply eliminate the old woman than to convince her to "let go". The same is true of the observers. Yet, they seem to be doing things the hard way. Why would they do that if it would be so much easier simply to destroy the humans causing the problem?

*bolding in your quote mine*

Okay, I think when thinking about the observers, we need to almost use a "logic grid" (remember those? lol) in order to eliminate some possible answers to your question. In other words, list the traits and qualities about them which we know, apply Occam's Razor, and see what comes out the other side on the "answer" aspect of the puzzle.

I'm not going to do that here lol ... but let's just examine the bolded question above. "Why should the Observers care about humans?"

To answer that, I'm going to say that they don't particular "care" about us. August showed us that much. They understand we are unique individually, but they don't "love" us. So in that regard, I don't think they "should" care about us, because I don't think they particularly do. I think they are more are less neutral when it comes to emotional investment in us.

That having been said .... I think they often LIMIT their abilities in regards to humans. They don't treat us as lab rats ... however they don't exactly show us warm and fuzzies either. But they do exhibit RESTRAINT and for some reason, they have as a "rule" over them ... "do not get involved".

Also ... another rule of theirs, is arguably: "do not change the future by introducing new sets of probabilities."

So what they CAN do ... they DO NOT do. They restrain themselves.

So the question, I think is ... "why do the Observers restrain themselves with humans?"

And the answer to that, i think is quite obvious. They submit to some humans who want them to show restraint. They submit to a set of "ethics" as it were. Which they often cross the line of.

I think if they didn't ultimately answer/submit to some kind of human being or group of humans, they wouldn't exhibit restraint towards us at all.

So in answer to your question,"why should the observers care about humans?" .... my answer is, "some other humans want them to for some reason."

So who are those people that want them too? And why would they want them too? Does Brown Betty tell us ? lol .....

[Duque de Osuna]

He has been weaponised though............

What ever happened to that? he did not seem too weaponized in 6B. Granted it would be hard to incorporate that aspect of his personality while he was trying to convince Olivia to give a relationship with him a shot.

[ikkokusenkin]

*bolding in your quote mine*

Okay, I think when thinking about the observers, we need to almost use a "logic grid" (remember those? lol) in order to eliminate some possible answers to your question. In other words, list the traits and qualities about them which we know, apply Occam's Razor, and see what comes out the other side on the "answer" aspect of the puzzle.

I'm not going to do that here lol ... but let's just examine the bolded question above. "Why should the Observers care about humans?"

To answer that, I'm going to say that they don't particular "care" about us. August showed us that much. They understand we are unique individually, but they don't "love" us. So in that regard, I don't think they "should" care about us, because I don't think they particularly do. I think they are more are less neutral when it comes to emotional investment in us.

That having been said .... I think they often LIMIT their abilities in regards to humans. They don't treat us as lab rats ... however they don't exactly show us warm and fuzzies either. But they do exhibit RESTRAINT and for some reason, they have as a "rule" over them ... "do not get involved".

Also ... another rule of theirs, is arguably: "do not change the future by introducing new sets of probabilities."

So what they CAN do ... they DO NOT do. They restrain themselves.

So the question, I think is ... "why do the Observers restrain themselves with humans?"

And the answer to that, i think is quite obvious. They submit to some humans who want them to show restraint. They submit to a set of "ethics" as it were. Which they often cross the line of.

I think if they didn't ultimately answer/submit to some kind of human being or group of humans, they wouldn't exhibit restraint towards us at all.

So in answer to your question,"why should the observers care about humans?" .... my answer is, "some other humans want them to for some reason."

So who are those people that want them too? And why would they want them too? Does Brown Betty tell us ? lol .....

Hmmm... I dunno if I agree with this part completely:

I think if they didn't ultimately answer/submit to some kind of human being or group of humans, they wouldn't exhibit restraint towards us at all.

I mean, there are lots of things we humans care about that don't control us. Take our pets, for instance. We love them and would never intentionally harm them. And yet, it's not like we're answering to them (or to other pets) in anyway. Now, before anyone makes that kind of link, I'm not saying humans are like pets to the Observers. I just suck at making up hypotheticals LOL.

What if the Observers are just benevolent, dispassionate beings, neither interested nor disinterested in what humans do? All their subsequent meddling may only be their attempt to fix September's mistake of getting caught by Walternate in the lab.

[TheOtherMe]

Hmmm... I dunno if I agree with this part completely:

I mean, there are lots of things we humans care about that don't control us. Take our pets, for instance. We love them and would never intentionally harm them. And yet, it's not like we're answering to them (or to other pets) in anyway. Now, before anyone makes that kind of link, I'm not saying humans are like pets to the Observers. I just suck at making up hypotheticals LOL.

What if the Observers are just benevolent, dispassionate beings, neither interested nor disinterested in what humans do? All their subsequent meddling may only be their attempt to fix September's mistake of getting caught by Walternate in the lab.

I can be on board with this, but it still it goes with this idea that they do care about something, even if it's not 'exactly' us...

But because their actions can effect us, it kind of does then make it partually about us, because we have the capasity to get in their way and ruin their 'preferred' course or visa versa.

In the episode with Milo (I think it was "The Plateau") they made this case in point where an ability to tap into probable futures, or predictabilities, was more efficiant if the being lost his sense of compassion for others (aka higher brain function). The Observers are a perfected version of that.

However, even when August defected and couldn't not 'feel' for Hollis, September showed a side of himself in which he was concerned for the life of August, showing that even with in their lack of compassion for humanity, they don't completely lack it for each other.

I am just saying the fact that they can even make mistakes, suggests that they are not in complete control, that they have their own belief system, and that in effect, we can effect them, just as much as they can effect us (we observer their observations and they can come to care for us) more or less making them like us, just that perhaps they are extreme [early period] Buddhists for an unforseeable reason.

Buddhism had to go through 18 schools of thought to finally conclude their early works were in some ways about denial and not about solutions to suffering. It eventually gets turned on it's head to say, ok, we do feel, we are here, we should be here, but maybe we can be here and not suffer so much, and that doing so has to be about caring for the suffering of others (utilitarianism) because their is a realization that we are all here together and that 'togetherness' can have an universal effect (Karma-->Dharma/Adharma--->Karma--->Dharma/Adharma)

I kind of see the Observers going down this road...

[tricked]

Hmmm... I dunno if I agree with this part completely:

I mean, there are lots of things we humans care about that don't control us. Take our pets, for instance. We love them and would never intentionally harm them. And yet, it's not like we're answering to them (or to other pets) in anyway. Now, before anyone makes that kind of link, I'm not saying humans are like pets to the Observers. I just suck at making up hypotheticals LOL.

What if the Observers are just benevolent, dispassionate beings, neither interested nor disinterested in what humans do? All their subsequent meddling may only be their attempt to fix September's mistake of getting caught by Walternate in the lab.

Actually, I think the pet analogy is a good one, and makes a good point. We don't abuse animals, even though we don't answer to one of them.

Although ... pets (like dogs) are distinctly different from us. Even if the Observers are not human, they have our likeness.

Or, it could be ... that we have theirs ......

Either way, I think that we are the closest thing they can perhaps relate to that exist. So far as we know. So they might be more likely to have compassion on us for that reason, if for no other.

But, they do seem to care about some of our choices, as TheOtherMe pointed out. They are concerned about Walter's choices (they said as much). They have fear when it comes to their own choices as well in regards to us. I think it's obvious their own fates are intertwined with ours somehow, on some level.

[TheOtherMe]

Actually, I think the pet analogy is a good one, and makes a good point. We don't abuse animals, even though we don't answer to one of them.

Although ... pets (like dogs) are distinctly different from us. Even if the Observers are not human, they have our likeness.

Or, it could be ... that we have theirs ......

Either way, I think that we are the closest thing they can perhaps relate to that exist. So far as we know. So they might be more likely to have compassion on us for that reason, if for no other.

But, they do seem to care about some of our choices, as TheOtherMe pointed out. They are concerned about Walter's choices (they said as much). They have fear when it comes to their own choices as well in regards to us. I think it's obvious their own fates are intertwined with ours somehow, on some level.

I was thinking about your "pet" analogy, and I think it's a great one!

--For instance I remember last year I saw this program where labs could 'read' symbols and they where taught to react to those symbols: different reactions to different symbols...

One another note, in "A Beautiful Mind" Russel Crow's character was trying to solve some 'proof' or equation by mapping the algerythms of pigeons. I think he was trying to suggest that their group configurations may be able to determine upcoming configurations (actions to actions, movement to movement---probabilities) Someone had suggested on another thread that humanity could be like an experiment to the Observers and in the same sense that we can teach animals to be more like us (because perhaps we all derive from the same biological components), the same could be said with the relationship with the Observers...or visa versa depending on origin of species.

[ikkokusenkin]

Someone had suggested on another thread that humanity could be like an experiment to the Observers and in the same sense that we can teach animals to be more like us (because perhaps we all derive from the same biological components), the same could be said with the relationship with the Observers...or visa versa depending on origin of species.

That's a really interesting theory!

[WhatsUpDoc1958]

My theory about the Observers is that their universe (the yellow one, I presume) has a non-interference directive with respect to other universes they observe. Their travels to the Red and Blue universes may be part of an academic historical study related to The Rise and Fall of the Red and Blue Universes.

However, some Observers are in disagreement with the Non-Interference Directive, and believe in compassionate assistance to their sibling universes. Rather than playing God to the other universes, they play a benevolent nanny, guiding them past the dangerous time of destructive modes of inter-universal, and eventually, inter-temporal travel. If they can survive this dangerous time period, they will come to develop universe-friendly modes of transportation between universes.

[phx219]

Well, I do agree that there may be two factions of Observers (and were do the Rogues fit in?) and I do believe that they may be from a third Universe, since September's mistake and subsequent course correction and loops didn't delete the Observers from existance. Of course, since they are traveling outside of time, it may actually mean that their future was changed and no longer exists, and that this new future contains a totally different faction of Observers.