3.15 "Subject 13" - Disappointed

[PB]

But in season 1 when Olivia confronted Walter about the experiments they did on her when she was 3, he says that they were trying to prepare them and make them capable because something terrible was coming. Also, she shot her stepfather when she was 9, so it probably happened shortly after the events in this episode. We are led to believe that she remembers her life after the shooting, so I'm guessing that there were no more experiments done on her from that point on.

Yeah, but Walter's recollection of the past is very hazy because he's missing parts of his brain and because of his long stay at St. Claire's psychiatric hospital. He may think he had been training Olivia since she was three to be a soldier but that could just be how he recollects it through the fog of time and brain damage.

[PB]

I think that this scene from 'Subject 13' is important.



As Walter throws the paper crane into the air and continues to tell his story it appears to flap its wings for a brief second and then ignite. I think that this was much more than cheap parlor tricks, I believe that Olivia is following the verbal cues from Walter's story and subconsciously using her telekinetic and pyrokinetic powers to both fly the crane and then subsequently ignite it. This would be clever psychological manipulation and control of Oliva's gifts by appealing to her imagination through story telling. She imagines it, and then it happens. This would also serve as evidence that Walter and Olivia were already very familiar with her pyrokinetic abilities which would mean that this episode is not at all inconsistent with findings from the video tape uncovered in the episode 'Jacksonville' (in the videotape from Jacksonville we see a very scared very young Olivia curled up in a corner after lighting part of a room on fire, in this tape we hear Bell's voice because Bell is apparently in the room).

Some have suggested that the scene from 'Subject 13' in which Olivia lights the room on fire and the scene from the video tape in the episode 'Jacksonville' contradict each other. I don't think they contradict each other at all because they are two completely different events.

[bloodwrath]

EDIT:


Moved to spoiler forum here > http://www.fringe-forum.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=9526

[LovinSha]

First off, your point about that whole "it's been six months line and and the fact that it's only April and all of this allegedly was supposed to have taken place in 1985. . .that's spot on, good catch. Think that's gotta be an error!

I don't recall when Peter nor Olivia were born, but I'll assume that your assumptions about their approximate birth dates are spot on. If they were looking for actors who were slightly older than the characters they were intended to play I would surmise that this is because they wanted a boy and girl who radiated a certain maturity (which is probably how they ended up with a twelve and thirteen year old). Budget and time constraints on top of an inability to find convincing actors of the appropriate age could well have been factors. I find it easy to over look casting choices like these.

I'm guessing the errors were caused by last minute story changes. It could be that they were originally going to incorporate Olivia shooting her stepfather into the episode so the character who played young Olivia would have to look like a 9 year old if they had plans to film that scene. Who knows. It could also explain why they didn't recast the boy who played young Peter in the episode "Peter."

[PB]

• A lot of retconning going on in this. I'd rather they didn't do that but I understand why it's necessary now and then.

• I always struggle with these flashback shows because John Noble's make-up is really hard to see past. As amazing an actor as he is, he can only act young to a certain extent.

• Before we go much further (really, any further), I am going to need an explanation for why adult Olivia and adult Peter have no memory of these events. That has always been a naggling issue, particularly why Olivia can't remember the cortexiphan trials (though she remembers living in Jacksonville). With this new show, the reasons for this lack of recollection just became super important to the point that I worry I will lose patience with the show if they wait much longer to address it.

I am guessing at this point that Olivia's admission in episode 1.06 'The Cure' that she shot her step dad when he attacked her mother may shed light on why she forgets this part of her childhood. The trauma of losing her mother and shooting her stepfather would be more than enough to cause PTSD and perhaps leave a gaping hole in her memory. It's very possible that she shoots her stepfather shortly after the events from this episode.

Then, in 1.07 'In Which We Meet Mr. Jones' Peter uncovers a repressed memory while trying to read a dead man's memory with Walter's help. Walter has to electrocute Peter and the dead man simultaneously in order to get the procedure to work and in the process Peter recalls that Walter used to electrocute him as a child. This may explain why there are gaping holes in Peter's memory of his childhood. Walter may have intentionally removed Peter's childhood memories to cause him to forget Walternate and the other universe perhaps.

[*anna*]

I´m not really disappointed, well maybe a little bit. I expected that there would be more background information or something. Now we´re sitting here , knowing that Olivia and Peter met before - but not Why??? That´s all.......))

[sweetfringe]

I am sorry to discourage you PB, I mean I don't want that people who loved the episode should see it negatively just because few others like me didn't like it. That's the reason I did not want to create a new thread and spread "hatred" as such....I just wanted to vent out my frustration somewhere. Being terribly disappointed with Fringe and losing hope on it is my personal opinion about it and that has got nothing to do with how good or bad others perceive it to be. As I have always said, any work of art is neither good nor bad, it is the expectation of people and the resulting perception of it which makes the show good for some people and bad for others.....So, if you loved the episode, I am sure you're absolutely right in your way......

I do not live in USA, so I have to download the episode every week, and since I hate using torrents, I have to use file hosting sites to download fringe episodes. I pay 7 euros a month, JUST to be able to download Fringe episodes (I cannot download from Fringe site or Hulu site as they require me to be from US to be able to download) and I know it's no big deal compared to the other great fans of Fringe but I loved Fringe for its OMG element, the mystical factors, the science in it, the clever thinking of the writers to join all the story arcs so wonderfully. I am not someone who doesn't enjoy the human/emotional aspect, I truly enjoyed Peter-Walter story, and also enjoy Peter-Olivia love angle...and I still think Fringe is doing a marvelous job when it comes to character development and emotions.....but I watched Fringe for the science/mystical factor, and for walter's crazy one liners....but all of them have seem to disappear from Fringe......I waited for a long time before giving up hope on Fringe, even after the pregnancy angle, I thought, NO! even though I hate this idea, I will still make myself love it bcoz I cannot give up on Fringe, it is the only show after F.R.I.E.N.D.S. that I have come to love like crazy.......

But now it is just too much for me to handle, Fringe writers have become too lazy or may be it is the fact that this season they are using too many new writers, which is messing up the continuity big time. Whatever the reason, I don't think Fringe is anymore the show which I loved, it may still be a GREAT show, and one which woos its fans....but personally I don't think I have faith in the writers anymore.

I dunno man....I am sorry if I have discouraged or upset people with my post, I just...I dunno.....perhaps I will still continue to watch Fringe no matter what I say but one thing is for sure...I don't expect much from the writers anymore........may be that way I would start liking the show again,lol.....

I completely agree. Everything's changed on Fringe. I didn't like this episode either, and usually the flashback ones are decent.

[bloodwrath]

Another thing I noticed that I don't like.



I just rewatched 2x16 "Peter" episode.


scene
Elizabeth enters Walter's lab. She notices sick Peter (from the other Universe and she doesn't know that yet) laying on bed with Walter standing next to him. The boy in unconscious and being given IV with the cure.


Elizabeth: Oh, god. Oh, my baby. *she grabs him and hugs him*
Walter: Elizabeth, don't. He's not ours. I have to take him back.


Elizabeth gives Walter the-wtf-walt-!?can't-we-keep-him- stare


the action goes back to present time, Walter is in Olivia Dunham's apartment and continues his story


Walter (to Olivia): And I realized at that moment that despite what I'd promised, what I fully intended to do... that I could never take Peter back. The way she looked at him, I saw in her what I feared most in myself when I saw him... That I couldn't lose him again.






I clearly got the impression that Peter wasn't returned because Walter and Elizabeth couldn't stand losing Peter a second time.


Now in "Subject 13" it looks like they want to return Peter, but have been unable to do so therefore the cortexiphan trials are restarted and Walter hopes Olivia can safely cross the universe and return Peter. It seems like the writers decided to change things (maybe it's a better fit for the overall story arc).


EDIT:


Or maybe I'm overthinking everything again and Walter and Elizabeth (in "Subject 13") still want to keep Peter but things didn't go as well as they wished. Peter got better he clearly doesn't want to buy this "you've been sick and got confused" bullsh*t. The boy knows that something is clearly wrong and he doesn't belong here.

[Omniscient_Jay]

Fringe has followed the same plot, spending 8 episodes on Olivia's return, then next 6 episodes on Peter-Olivia relationship, introduced the pregnancy angle (that too pathetically done btw), and now a flashback episode which is quite honestly a blatant proof of how terrible Fringe writing has become....after this episode, I for one do not believe in the writers AT ALL.....

There were no continuity errors in this episode...continuity errors are small....and needs someone to pay attention to find out.......these are convenience errors.....i.e. the writers just incorporated whatever pathetic writing they wanted to, without caring to consider what happened earlier, what they had said earlier.......Olivia and Peter being so much elder than they are supposed to be, no explanation about Peter and Olivia not remembering anything, no William bell during the burnt room incident (If they couldn't get William Bell, they shouldn't have done that scene).....and not to mention, how in the blue hell are 8-9 year old kids involved in cortexiphian trials??? Aren't they supposed to be like 3 year old??? 9 is too old for the logic they gave about cortexiphian trials.....

I think you might be looking at the episode and the information presented within it the wrong way, mate.

The reason William Bell wasn't in the burnt room scene is because that scene and the one referenced in both Bad Dreams and Jacksonville are two entirely separate incidents. This is obvious, as the time-frames of both incidents differ by several years.

As for the age differences, it is most likely due to the casting of the actors, rather than any error involving ages. Peter was born in 1978, and by 1985 would be seven years old. Since Olivia was born around the same time, then she, as well as the other children, would be around 6-7-8 years of age. The actors portraying the children might (and probably were) older than their characters, hence the disconnect.

The Cortexiphan trials apparently began in 1981, and according to Nina, ended in 1983. This episode showed us that the trials in fact continued beyond that point, with research still underway by 1985. So the children were indeed supposed to be three or four years old, but only at the start of the trial - since the trials were ongoing as of 1985, they would all be consequently older.

So I think the reason you saw all these things as retcons and plot-holes was because you may have neglected to consider information revealed in previous episodes, which is unfortunate, seeing as you were not satisfied with the episode.

Granted, there is the problem that adult Olivia and Peter don't remember these parts of their childhood; however, much could have happened between the time they were six/seven and the time they became adults, so they can still show how it is they had forgotten. And we've already had some insight on this with Peter, who was apparently electrocuted with car-batteries (probably and effort by Walter to suppress his son's memories), as well as Walter teaching Peter to forget his dreams/nightmares (as seen in Dream Logic). We'll most likely get some clues on how these memories were lost, and if we don't get them by series end, we can call out the writers on it.

As for Season 3's quality, I agree that showfeels different, but that is a natural consequence of learning information that changes how we view the show. After all, a show in its first season is always more mysterious and enticing than its last, where we know a lot about the world of the show. And while I agree that things certain elements have not been handled as well as they could have been (namely P/O related elements), I see no reason to entirely dismiss the show just yet.

I don't expect your opinion on this episode to change, but I hope that you at least consider the information I've presented.

[jay_eilthabhae]

I think you might be looking at the episode and the information presented within it the wrong way, mate.

The reason William Bell wasn't in the burnt room scene is because that scene and the one referenced in both Bad Dreams and Jacksonville are two entirely separate incidents. This is obvious, as the time-frames of both incidents differ by several years.

Well, they were not portrayed as different incidents, infact that is exactly where the problem is.....they showed it to be in different time-frames while saying that it is the same incident. Why do I think so? Well, because they clearly showed that this was the first time there was any significant capability showed by a Cortexiphian kid. This was clear by a few things, like Walter telling Elizabeth that the children are the key, not Olivia, the children, which meant Olivia has still not shown any major activity as such. I really don't think the entire fire room scene happened earlier as well, at least, not from what the episode which was in front of us.......I agree it could be possible but based on the information in the episode, I think the fact that the fire incident happened just once is far more probable than the explanation you offered about them being different incidents....

EDIT: A quote by Walter from the Jacksonville episode:-

WALTER: This was the first time you saw the other side. You were frightened. Started a fire with your mind. It should have worked. This is the very sort of thing that William and I were preparing for.

We know one thing for sure that it was this episode when Walter comes to know that Olivia can cross over or this was the first time she saw the other side or whatever.....and since Walter in the quote above was referring to the "3 year old Olivia" video while saying it....it is more than obvious that these two fire incidents were not different...it was the same....

As for the age differences, it is most likely due to the casting of the actors, rather than any error involving ages. Peter was born in 1978, and by 1985 would be seven years old. Since Olivia was born around the same time, then she, as well as the other children, would be around 6-7-8 years of age. The actors portraying the children might (and probably were) older than their characters, hence the disconnect.

Peter was a very small kid in the Peter episode, and this episode is supposed to be 6 months after that...I know kids could grow quickly but growing so old, so quickly is just too big a leap......not to mention, 1985 was when Peter was supposed to be abducted but 1st April 1985 was the current date in this episode, which is supposed to be 6 months after Peter's abduction, which means Peter was abducted in 1984..........Again, it could be possible that the date shown in this episode could be incorrect but I am basing my judgement on what is shown..........

The Cortexiphan trials apparently began in 1981, and according to Nina, ended in 1983. This episode showed us that the trials in fact continued beyond that point, with research still underway by 1985. So the children were indeed supposed to be three or four years old, but only at the start of the trial - since the trials were ongoing as of 1985, they would all be consequently older.

Well, once again, the episode just seemed to show that it is the cortexiphian trial time, nothing was said about the fact that this was a follow up or anything. So, given the information, it seems more like an error, i.e. them forgetting (or choosing to forget) what they had said and done earlier....and going with what's comfortable

So I think the reason you saw all these things as retcons and plot-holes was because you may have neglected to consider information revealed in previous episodes, which is unfortunate, seeing as you were not satisfied with the episode.

According to me I have put a lot of thought into this episode and remember all the episodes as well (having them on ur hard disk helps,lol) and after considering what they have said and done, I think it is more poor writing than me neglecting anything. I could be totally wrong and you could be right because the points you presented could be as right as the points I present, it is just the way we are choosing to see it, i.e. you with a clear and fresh mind and me with a complaining and frustrated mind,lol........

One more thing....In jacksonville, we saw that the cortexiphian drug used to frighten the kids, i.e. they used to increase the emotional state of the person.....this was clearly shown in Jacksonville, and that's why Olivia told Walter, "What's wrong to you? You did this to kids?", so we know that cortexiphian was a synthetic compound which hightened emotional responses, while in this episode Walter says that it would take him years to create a drug which would stimulate emotional responses artificially and also why was he trying to highten emotional responses through those experiments, didn't they learn that already when they made cortexiphian, that's what it was supposed to do,right?.....so now, if we assume that Cortexiphian by this time was not invented yet, then what in the blue hell were these trials for? And if cortexiphian was already invented, then why did Walter need anything else to stimulate Olivia's response, as it was quite clear in Jacksonville that Cortexiphian stimulated fear emotion in a person's mind.........

I see no reason to entirely dismiss the show just yet.

I don't expect your opinion on this episode to change, but I hope that you at least consider the information I've presented.

Absolutely, there may not be a reason to dismiss the show but it is upto each individuals opinion,right? As I said earlier, the show may be GREAT, but I am not interested in it anymore.....you presented your views which I have apparently considered already but choose to see in a different light than you do....either of us could be correct.......or perhaps both of us are wrong and it is something in between,lol......but I personally have lost interest in Fringe, but as I said...perhaps watching fringe without much expectation may help me to enjoy the show much more.....