Nice, Walter. Niiiiiice.

[Joe Curwen]

One of the most disturbing things about this episode was what Walter was willing to do to Nina.

Walter suspected that ringing the bell would cause William to invade and take over Nina's body. Walter did not know if this would be reversible. In effect, he did something that could well have killed Nina.

He rang the bell anyway. He did it without any regard for Nina, or anyone else. Nice.

The scene was played for dumb yuks, but I didn't find it very funny. One of the great, underlying themes of the past seasons was Walter's redemption. But over the course of the last two episodes, it seems that he has regressed mightily, and is now as pathetically self-centered, whiny and evil as he was in the early 80's. Has the work of two seasons been thrown away?

I'm not sure that this is a deliberate plot point or if the writing has become erratic. Honestly, I can't decide. I hope that they are setting up Walter for a big fall; I would at least have some interest in that. Perhaps the point of all of this is to show that Walter is reverting to form under all the pressure?

I can no longer like his character anymore, and I can't imagine that many people do by this point. By re-evilizing Walter they are undercutting the relationship he has with Peter and forcing Peter to focus more on Olivia (which may well be part of the overall plan).

If I'm feeling opitimistic, I think they might be setting up an awesome twist. Just imagine if all of a sudden, by the season's end, we realize that the Big Bad of the series is, and always has been, Walter. Certainly, they have been making a point about his moral degradation over the last few episodes. I'll wait and see.

--
Joe

[fringe dork]

Walter knew that it wouldn't be permanent if it would work...Because he knew that if Bell came back it would be momentary...And Bell in his will said that the bell he gave Nina was something like a momentary glimpse of him...So you can't say that Walter became evil again because of that!

[tricked]

This is an excellent point I think.

And whilst Walter has worked on his redemptive state, he is still not yet "redeemed" as far as I can tell in his way of thinking overall.

* He still injected himself with nonsense in an attempt to make his brain grow back, at the request of his son not to, all because of his desire to compete with Walternate.

* He was willing to do to Nina something she essentially didn't agree with.

He has perhaps learned valuable lessons, but still has a "ways to go" imo.

[Pyrite]

One of the most disturbing things about this episode was what Walter was willing to do to Nina.

Walter suspected that ringing the bell would cause William to invade and take over Nina's body. Walter did not know if this would be reversible. In effect, he did something that could well have killed Nina.

He rang the bell anyway. He did it without any regard for Nina, or anyone else. Nice.

This is exactly what I was thinking. This really bothered me. I've always felt cautious about Walter, but this was going too far for me.

[gillybee]

I assume that Bells file would have said something about the effects and whether or not it was permanent.

But I think that Bell is the biggest sinner here having yanked Olivia over to another universe he then doped her with his soul magnets its like she is his personal lab rat.

[tricked]

I assume that Bells file would have said something about the effects and whether or not it was permanent.

But I think that Bell is the biggest sinner here having yanked Olivia over to another universe he then doped her with his soul magnets its like she is his personal lab rat.

I agree ... for more reasons than you mention here. Bell seems more ruthless and deceptive than anyone honestly, perhaps even Walternate. Bell doesn't seem driven by avarice, or greed, or some easily noticed "vice" .... his god-complex seems almost innate and natural for him. He just enjoys playing dice with the universe I think, something which shouldn't be something he gets to do

[jophan]

I assume that Bells file would have said something about the effects and whether or not it was permanent.

But I think that Bell is the biggest sinner here having yanked Olivia over to another universe he then doped her with his soul magnets its like she is his personal lab rat.

I agree with your second point. But Walter still has no ethical sense. He wants Bell back, so he's willing to sacrifice anyone -- even the very valuable top manager of Massive Dynamic -- to get him, so he can have his hand held. In the promo pictures, he looks quite content, despite the damage he's doing to Olivia and to Peter's "happiness" he pretends to value. How is this different than his willingness to damage the universes to save Peter in 1985? He plays at contrition but there's no sign of sincerity.

[Joe Curwen]

I agree with your second point. But Walter still has no ethical sense. He wants Bell back, so he's willing to sacrifice anyone -- even the very valuable top manager of Massive Dynamic -- to get him, so he can have his hand held. In the promo pictures, he looks quite content, despite the damage he's doing to Olivia and to Peter's "happiness" he pretends to value. How is this different than his willingness to damage the universes to save Peter in 1985? He plays at contrition but there's no sign of sincerity.

That's my take on it too.

The question is whether or not this is a new and deliberate direction they've taken Walter's in, or is simple sloppiness?

Gilly's point is a good one - TV logic alone would demand we assume that the possession isn't permanent. But if that is the case, then why wouldn't they simply say so? The way it is now the damage to Walter's character seems pretty severe. I just don't get it.

Another question I have is if you are right, does this make Fringe a better show? Personally I would hate for the show to end knowing that Walter was really no better than a sociopath and hadn't changed one whit since the beginning of the show.

--
Joe

[Rekka]

I didn't take that scene so seriously, nor did I really think of the consequences if Walter succeeded in summoning Bell's soul to enter Nina's body at that moment. It's definitely food for thought, though, albeit a bit disconcerting!

But I don't know how seriously we're supposed to think of that scene. To me, it was more for comic relief--I loved that beat after Walter rings the bell and stares into Nina's eyes "Bellie?!" "No, Walter. *exasperated* It's still me." Cracks me up!

What I'm wondering is whether or not this process for transplanting Bell's soul into a proper vessel would be permanent or not. I'm reading a Japanese novel series called 'Hakushaku to Yousei' which deals with an evil prince who is able to live forever by capturing his soul when he's about to die and inserting it into a new, healthy vessel. This process is said to "kill" the original person's soul when the prince inhabits a new body. I really like this idea of the original soul struggling against an invading, evil presence.

But in the case of Fringe, do you get the feeling that Bell's visit *could* be permanent? If that's the case, then shouldn't we be concerned for Olivia? Like Hakushaku, could Bell's presence damage or even kill Olivia's soul? Countering my own thought, I certainly don't think the writers would off our leading lady in such a manner (Death by Bell) Rather, I get the feeling that inhabiting Olivia is just a temporary measure for them to possibly create a more suitable vessel for his soul.

What I thought would be cool is if this is when Walter (and Bell) create a new form of shapeshifter. Bell created the shapeshifters, so he knows exactly how they work and could easily create a new prototype for Bell to enter. The only thing is, whose body are they going to use? Given the fact that Walter always seems to be able to acquire corpses for experimentation, this may not be very difficult.

I agree with your second point. But Walter still has no ethical sense. He wants Bell back, so he's willing to sacrifice anyone -- even the very valuable top manager of Massive Dynamic -- to get him, so he can have his hand held. In the promo pictures, he looks quite content, despite the damage he's doing to Olivia and to Peter's "happiness" he pretends to value. How is this different than his willingness to damage the universes to save Peter in 1985? He plays at contrition but there's no sign of sincerity.

Very true. It does seem like Walter's willing to do anything, regardless of the consequences. In this point in time, though, I think he's WAY too focused on the negative outcomes of this pending war to really see the immediate fallout. I think he's sooooo frightened for their world, his son, that he's willing to make those sacrifices, just like Walternate was willing to sacrifice one Olivia if it could save hundreds, thousands, all of mankind. I don't think Walter is always an ethical angel, but has he ever been? He can always work at redeeming himself, but I don't think he will ever be a saint. Ever. That's just who he is.

[tricked]

One thing I've wondered .... is if when Peter tilts towards the "weaponized deceptive ruthless" Peter, Walter tilts towards the humble, redeeming Walter.

When Peter tilts towards the "mature honest responsible" Peter, Walter tilts towards the erratic, obstinate, selfish Walter.

It's as though there is a balance between the two and it's almost a give/take type thing. Both can't be "level" at the same time for very long. I've wondered if there is any validity to this, especially considering that Peter is from another universe, and most often the key players opposite selves are so radically different from each other. After all, Peter and Walter should have some kind of quantum emotional entanglement going on which causes an "opposite" type of thing, given the fact their from the opposite dimensions naturally.

It would be like swapping out Peter's mother on both sides. Over here, his mother would be strong like she was over there, and thus over there Walternates elizabeth would be an alkie and suicidal just like Walternate. So .... whenever one is strong, the other is weak, etc and so forth. This might apply to Peter and Walter as well.

Just a theory I've had. If it's valid, then their swing in attitudes on the show might have some deliberateness to them ...