I do not trust william bell

[fragaria x phile]

As you may or may not know, lots of expensive equipment, research facilities, and materials are necessary for scientific research.

Plus tuition/stipends/honest-to-goodness-salary (dare to dream) for the workers, of course.

[RandyO]

but does that somehow limit the kinds of expression experiments we can do? There are very few aleternatives to E. coli that scientists are comfortable using. I suppose this is not a good example but you get the point. By not thinking outside the box and just building upon research are we limiting ourselves?

Here's the scoop ... if you work for a paycheck, you're in a box.

The reason why I harp on Tesla was that he was one of the few geniuses who truly worked outside the box for the 19th/20th centuries. His problem was that he wasn't born into a Rockefeller or Vanderbilt household and thus, he was limited by what Westinghouse & Morgan would contribute to his projects. Really, that AC work should have made him the world's richest man but instead, for George Westinghouse to get a second round of financing, Tesla had to give up a lot of ownership. Thus, he was an ordinary worker bee with minimal capital accrual.

I think in order for the science to advance, we need naturally born rich geniuses (ala Tony Starks) toiling away in their facilities, without any concern if their work gets published or not. Then, real breakthroughs will occur and many new industries may emerge.

[tricked]

No. And the reason is that you HAVE to "live by those laws" before you can make an achievement worthy of a super-genius. Of course, you don't have to know the laws to live by them. You simply have to have the proper attitude. For example, take law number 2: "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible." The Wright brothers did not know this law, and had never heard of it, but they DID live by it. All the experts at that time believed that heavier than air flight was impossible. The Wright Brothers were willing to try to do the impossible. More timid scientists would never dare to do that.

Hmm ..... decent points

Totally agree with you. A lot of discoveries these days are made based upon a previous foundation. Take a look at PCR (polymerase chain reaction). Once that was discovered any research involving genes really sky rocketed. Now it's pretty much a staple of any genetic research done...........hmmmm makes me wonder if our science is directed more than we think?

Take RandyO's example of E. coli. This organism is arguably the microbiologists workhorse and bacteria of choice when it comes to experiments (for too many reasons and details to discuss here!) especially expression experiments but does that somehow limit the kinds of expression experiments we can do? There are very few aleternatives to E. coli that scientists are comfortable using. I suppose this is not a good example but you get the point. By not thinking outside the box and just building upon research are we limiting ourselves?

Yes but what is left to think on and discover that's outside of the box?

I still think there are a lot of "super genius" areas to explore. In talking with some others about it, actually, a few good ideas were mentioned:

* The P versus NP problem being solved, for example (of which I have only a passing understanding )
* Riemann hypothesis counters (here's looking at Jacob Barnett )
* of course a nice and cohesive TOE
* solving the issue of what the Ultimate Fate of the Universe is in cosmology?

There are a lot of other ideas I could have listed, but sadly I couldn't think of many that wouldn't require what seemed to be a lot of resources/funding/etc .... help?

Here's the scoop ... if you work for a paycheck, you're in a box.

The reason why I harp on Tesla was that he was one of the few geniuses who truly worked outside the box for the 19th/20th centuries. His problem was that he wasn't born into a Rockefeller or Vanderbilt household and thus, he was limited by what Westinghouse & Morgan would contribute to his projects. Really, that AC work should have made him the world's richest man but instead, for George Westinghouse to get a second round of financing, Tesla had to give up a lot of ownership. Thus, he was an ordinary worker bee with minimal capital accrual.

I think in order for the science to advance, we need naturally born rich geniuses (ala Tony Starks) toiling away in their facilities, without any concern if their work gets published or not. Then, real breakthroughs will occur and many new industries may emerge.

Hmm .... I think this esp. applies to areas that would require "freedom" in both capital and experimentation, esp when it comes to exploring technology/energy/etc. But ... honestly ... when it comes to certain "other" areas, I can easily see the need for what many would consider "unethical" boundaries being crossed. And the entire world knows this has been done before .... not to open another can of worms (a can which Fringe actually explores in almost every episode lol )

[RandyO]

Hmm .... I think this esp. applies to areas that would require "freedom" in both capital and experimentation, esp when it comes to exploring technology/energy/etc. But ... honestly ... when it comes to certain "other" areas, I can easily see the need for what many would consider "unethical" boundaries being crossed. And the entire world knows this has been done before .... not to open another can of worms (a can which Fringe actually explores in almost every episode lol )

Well, as for unethical behavior, that would be Baron Von Frankenstein or Dr Moreau out in the south Pacific . There's still work to be done, without needing to push at the legal boundaries of human/animal/machine.

In terms of science/engineering work, in general, most persons, even those with a lot of bright ideas, don't want to either soil their reputation with the journals or risk losing their access to funds & thus, will seldom venture outside of their comfort zones. I think this is a huge problem and is actually why you see many bright persons leave S&E work to be at a hedge fund, minting money with high frequency a/o position trading

[sweetfringe]

Did anyone remember the Marionette episode, where the gentleman tried to bring his beloved girl who commited suicide back from the dead, but when he looked into her eyes -- it wasn't her. How can anyone be so sure that what Walter brought back is actually William Bell, just because he used Soul Magnets...

Of course most of my theories are off the wall. But, just wondering..

[RandyO]

"The present is theirs; the future, for which I really worked, is mine." - Nikola Tesla, scientist. Sig Design: SweetFringe

Tesla fans unite !

Did anyone remember the Marionette episode, where the gentleman tried to bring his beloved girl who commited suicide back from the dead, but when he looked into her eyes -- it wasn't her. How can anyone be so sure that what Walter brought back is actually William Bell, just because he used Soul Magnets...

Pet Sematary, anyone ?

[TheOtherMe]

Did anyone remember the Marionette episode, where the gentleman tried to bring his beloved girl who commited suicide back from the dead, but when he looked into her eyes -- it wasn't her. How can anyone be so sure that what Walter brought back is actually William Bell, just because he used Soul Magnets...

Of course most of my theories are off the wall. But, just wondering..

I think this is a great point, but even if it is William Bell, we also do not know that it is just our William Bell alone ...

What I mean is we have all of these counterparts (alternate versions) how do we also not know if these counter parts, when their bodies die,-do not converge and become one blended conscience and there for could we also then be dealing with several comprised William Bells?? (probably not, but just a thought!)

[tricked]

I think this is a great point, but even if it is William Bell, we also do not know that it is just our William Bell alone ...

What I mean is we have all of these counterparts (alternate versions) how do we also not know if these counter parts, when their bodies die,-do not converge and become one blended conscience and there for could we also then be dealing with several comprised William Bells?? (probably not, but just a thought!)

I think this would be more likely than it not being Bell at all. It could be some strange hybridized version of Bell with multiple "soul energies" attached to him. More of a mwahahaha! version of Bell. Uber-Bell

Well, as for unethical behavior, that would be Baron Von Frankenstein or Dr Moreau out in the south Pacific . There's still work to be done, without needing to push at the legal boundaries of human/animal/machine.

Indeed. However, we could still advance many areas perhaps, if we did cross those lines more often. I'm not advocating, or saying it doesn't happen already (like sewing monkey heads onto decapitated bodies for example) ... but still. It's probably one of those things that sort of "taunts" some scientist, in an "if only we could do that" type of way. Perhaps like a police officer sometimes wishes they could use lethal force without red tape

[theNomadz]

I think this is a great point, but even if it is William Bell, we also do not know that it is just our William Bell alone ...

What I mean is we have all of these counterparts (alternate versions) how do we also not know if these counter parts, when their bodies die,-do not converge and become one blended conscience and there for could we also then be dealing with several comprised William Bells?? (probably not, but just a thought!)

I came away from these last 2 episodes feeling the only reason they did the soul magnet/Bell in Olivia's body twist was because they couldn't secure Leonard Nimoy for enough episodes has they'd wanted him, from what I made out he's basically a retired actor now happy to do the odd cameo but wouldn't take on a full time part, maybe Bells very central in s4.

I'll be honest I don't trust Bell either haven't if truth be told since we met him, and that moment he told Walter he'd need to think harder about what the actual machine is did seem point towards the fact Bell had already found out.

I'm liking this theory of having multiple souls combined from other universes of Bell it's totally wild. Maybe it was all pre-planned and written like that and not how I'd suspected, a kind of super scientist/ultimate villain with combined knowledge of many. Might even be why he said that 'on the universe' statement, like he's gonna be on top of it all in God like sense. Could even see it leading to a situation we'd need a combined effort from Walter/Walternate and Blue/Red teams to stop him.

MultiBell, Bellnormous, UncalculaBell damn stop me pleeese

At any rate I do hope there's some purpose to why they did the soul magnet plot more than just a means of getting a dead character back to lend an hand in the case, that would of felt too Randall and Hopkirk Deceased feeling.

[phx219]

Did Bell manipulate Peter to get into the machine on purpose to enact the string of events that would lead to the rewrite and Bell's return physically?

Nu-Bell may not even know this, but old-Bell could have known that even in death, would come a rebirth for him.

I'm thinking that original timeline Bell, before September interfered, may have seen the pending Observer Invasion future and been making preparations for it. If he had already stolen Observer-tech, then he could have already been present "outside of time" when September interfered, which would have displaced the Observer future with the loop, yet Bell could have retained knowledge of it. My major question is, does Bell's knowledge reboot each time around, with only clues left for each variation of Bell to decipher, or are the soul magnets somehow enabling him to loop endlessly through the timelines until he gets it right?

After the ZFT/DRJ plans of Season 1 were thwarted, its even possible that Bell sent the machine back himself at that point in order to give himself a get out of jail free card.